What do you hope for from Half-Casters?

[Derrick Winters]

John Lynch 106 wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

But even with Breadth that's 5 class feats out of 11. That's not all your class feats. It's not even half.

I've gone ahead and thrown it in Breadth at 8th level. And to help make up for it I'm going to have us compare the fighter:

Level 1) 1/1 class feats are fighter feats (100%)
Level 2) 1/2 class feats are fighter feats (50%)
Level 4) 1/3 class feats are fighter feats (33%)
Level 6) 2/4 class feats are fighter feats (50%)
Level 8) 2/5 class feats are fighter feats (40%)
Level 10) 3/6 class feats are fighter feats (50%)
Level 12) 3/7 class feats are fighter feats (43%)
Level 14) 4/8 class feats are fighter feats (50%)
Level 16) 5/9 class feats are fighter feats (56%)
Level 18) 5/10 class feats are fighter feats (50%)
Level 20) 6/11 class feats are fighter feats (55%)

So yes. You are right. Strictly speaking they are not 50% of a fighter's feats. But claiming that is actually misleading because you're only looking at 1/20th of the game.

100% class feats are fighter feats: 1 level
55-56% class feats are fighter feats: 3 levels
50% class feats are fighter feats: 10 levels
43% class feats are fighter feats: 2 levels
40% class feats are fighter feats: 2 levels
33% class feats are fighter feats: 2 levels

Level 1) 1/1 class feats are fighter feats (100%)

Level 2) 1/2 class feats are fighter feats (50%)
Level 4) 1/3 class feats are fighter feats (33%)
Level 6) 2/4 class feats are fighter feats (50%)
Level 8) 2/5 class feats are fighter feats (40%)
Level 9) 3/6 class feats are fighter feats (50%)
Level 10) 4/7 class feats are fighter feats (57%)
Level 12) 4/8 class feats are fighter feats (50%)
Level 14) 5/9 class feats are fighter feats (56%)
Level 15) 6/10 class feats are fighter feats (60%)
Level 16) 7/11 class feats are fighter feats (64%)
Level 18) 7/12 class feats are fighter feats (58%)
Level 20) 8/13 class feats are fighter feats (62%)

I've gone ahead and included the class features "Flexibility" and "Improved Flexibility" at 9th & 15th level. I applaud your choice to run some numbers to ground the discussion in facts.

[Edge93]

Something that may also be worth noting is that caster Multiclass will typically chew up your lower level class feats a little bit more than your high level (2,4, and 8 being before 10th level, 12th and 18th being after). This is kind of a nice bag. High level class feats can be super cool stuff, but low level feats tend to be very staple abilities and sometimes path-defining ones. Also Sword and Board (and I think Duelist) fighters have to delay until 14th on either Expert Casting or their action-saving stance.

Just to flesh out the discussion a little more beyond just % of feats. The specific levels of those feats can matter too but that varies class to class so I guess you can't really say anything solid off of that.

[PossibleCabbage]

Angel Hunter D wrote:

One thing I hope for if they do Magus - give it a list with good touch spells. Like, really, give them the spells they need.

One thing I'm entirely confident of is that when they do the Magus, they won't give it a list. They will instead give it access to the arcane list with different slot and proficiency progression from the Wizard/Sorcerer and potentially allow access to specific spells on other lists via class feats.

No class is going to have a bespoke list in PF2, unless it's 3PP. There are four lists.

[Angel Hunter D]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

One thing I hope for if they do Magus - give it a list with good touch spells. Like, really, give them the spells they need.

One thing I'm entirely confident of is that when they do the Magus, they won't give it a list. They will instead give it access to the arcane list with different slot and proficiency progression from the Wizard/Sorcerer and potentially allow access to specific spells on other lists via class feats.

No class is going to have a bespoke list in PF2, unless it's 3PP. There are four lists.

I know there won't be bespoke lists, I just ment whatever list they get better have decent touch spells.

I'd like to see the Arcane pool be bigger this time around - pool strike was cool but awful for example.

[PossibleCabbage]

One thing I wonder if it could work for a design space is to give a class slower level progression on spells, but more low level spell slots.

Like someone caps out at 6th level spells, but by the end they have 6 level 1 spell slots

[Ravingdork]

We already have a half caster in the form of the Red Mantis Assassin archetype from the Lost Omens World Guide. They can only cast 4th-level and lower spells.