Two part question here...
1) So I brought up to my DM the Rite Publishing content of the taninim race and the draconic exemplar class it comes with for the race, and he seems hesitate of the idea. He hasn't come out and said anything, but I figure that he thinks that the class will make me more powerful than the other players by a decent margin. I don't think that I'd be overpowered with it, but perhaps I'm just being blissfully ignorant of the (hypothetical) power discrepancy here.
Race: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/rite-publishing/dragon-tanin im
Class:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/rite-publishing/draconic -exemplar
The start stats are here:
17
11
16
12
10
14
We'll be using automatic bonus progression at 1 for 1. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automati c-bonus-progression/
The character I'm building is intended for a grapple build (to take advantage of the increased size), and all the feats are that line: Dirty Fighter, Improved/Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler. I also would take flyby attack and snatch once I hit high enough.
The big point here is that the character will grow in size as he gains in levels, gaining strength and constitution, losing dexterity in the process. He would also gain more natural attacks as well, starting with three and gaining two at fourth level and another at eighth. The total stat change from start to end of the class will be +10 strength, +4 constitution and a -8 to dexterity.
As a side note, I pan on taking the humanoid form gift to allow myself to still take part in dungeon crawls as the levels go on (I have informed my DM of this), which makes me more of a situationally effective character as I'd lose most of my main rep in the medium form.
All in all, that's it, and any insight on how I'm wrong (or right) about this class being on par with other full BAB classes would be welcome, and a way to try and convince him (if I'm right) that I won't be outshining others.
2) Are there and opinions of what to do to make the dex minus less jarring? I understand that the bonuses need a minus (and that is it realistically true), but a total of a -8 to dex makes me rather afraid of any undead or user of dex poison. Ideas of what to lose/trade to lessen this blow would be well appreciated.
Thanks ahead of time to any responses!
MISC
1) Campaign is homebrew aquatic, we'll have a ship.
2) As a house rule, we allow ABP's weapon enhancement bonus to apply to a creature for the purpose of natural attacks.
3) As a rule, we allow ABP's armor enhancement bonus to apply to shirts and other clothing, giving them a base armor score of +0.
The race seems fine. However, the class does seem like it'll be significantly stronger than most first-party martials, especially as you increase in levels. The main issues are your high Strength adding a large amount of flat damage to your multiple primary natural attacks, and your enormous threatened area from your racial bite attack's +1 size special rule and your own naturally-increasing size. You'll be able to make more attacks than anyone else, at a longer range than any other melee characters, at (probably) higher damage than anyone else, and at a comparable attack bonus. This is closer to, say, a Beastmorph Vivisectionist than a Fighter in terms of balance.
Your DM is entirely within his rights to have reservations about this class. A Taninim Brawler- or perhaps a Bloodrager, with similar ability to enlarge from certain bloodlines- would be an easier sell.
InvisiblePink wrote: The race seems fine. However, the class does seem like it'll be significantly stronger than most first-party martials, especially as you increase in levels. The main issues are your high Strength adding a large amount of flat damage to your multiple primary natural attacks, and your enormous threatened area from your racial bite attack's +1 size special rule and your own naturally-increasing size. You'll be able to make more attacks than anyone else, at a longer range than any other melee characters, at (probably) higher damage than anyone else, and at a comparable attack bonus. This is closer to, say, a Beastmorph Vivisectionist than a Fighter in terms of balance.
Your DM is entirely within his rights to have reservations about this class. A Taninim Brawler- or perhaps a Bloodrager, with similar ability to enlarge from certain bloodlines- would be an easier sell.
Do you think having the character gain their bonus natural attacks at a later dracomorphisis (wings at eighth instead of fourth, tail at twelve, claws at fourth instead of at first) would help with that issue?
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Not really. By introducing third-party material he hasn't approved, you are putting a burden onto him he hasn't asked for- that burden being "determining whether or not your character will be unbalanced"- and proposing further modifications to the 3pp material only makes that burden heavier by giving him more things to analyze, to scrutinize, and to weigh in a way that first-party material generally doesn't require.
That's the real issue here. If your DM hasn't asked for that kind of work, don't put it on him. If he's leery, don't wheedle or cajole- just take the L.
InvisiblePink wrote: Not really. By introducing third-party material he hasn't approved, you are putting a burden onto him he hasn't asked for- that burden being "determining whether or not your character will be unbalanced"- and proposing further modifications to the 3pp material only makes that burden heavier by giving him more things to analyze, to scrutinize, and to weigh in a way that first-party material generally doesn't require.
That's the real issue here. If your DM hasn't asked for that kind of work, don't put it on him. If he's leery, don't wheedle or cajole- just take the L.
I apologise for the misconception, I see how how I phrased it could have been better. I meant that since the damage the character would be doing would be more than that of another full BAB character and that was the only issue my DM had with the character, would bringing forward my previous mention be something that would alleviate the problem? I'm not planning on making a character that I haven't even been given the greenlight on yet.
Delaying the natural attacks would, well, delay the problem, but it wouldn't solve it. You're still stacking a frankly excessive amount of damage and CMB (from both Strength and size) on this character, significantly beyond what any but heavily-optimized Paizo martials can bring to bear.
At max level, a Fighter is making +20/+15/+10/+5 iteratives on his full attack. On your full attack, you are making +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20 (bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail) with comparable damage on each, assuming you haven't used magic items, feats, or buffs to acquire even more natural attacks than that. You still come out ahead at any level in between.
Making this class reasonable by 1pp martial standards would require gutting it. I very strongly recommend you play something else.
I didn't have too much trouble running a table of them from 1st to 8th, they had a good time and we just juiced up combat when necessary. It was a blast.
I am biased, as I was running the adventure in there. But totally a great time.
-Ben.
Just remember you can't use any of the draconic X class features while using the humanoid form.
Over all the Exemplar is pretty good, but I wouldn't say its overpowered or anything. I might even say it is a little bit on the weaker side.
Have playtested the fellow; unless you're playing a low-powered campaign with players with a low optimization skill and/or 15-pt.-buy etc., it should be fine. It's a good class, but it's nowhere as strong as it first looks. Be sure to explain/read up the difference between primary/secondary natural attacks, for example.
The main concern is theme:
Essentially, if the campaign is high-fantasy enough to allow for a draconic PC, you should have no problems. Note that, at high levels, the Dex-penalties will HURT. Big time. Plus, if your GM is anything like me, the in-game adversaries will see the big dragon and concentrate fire to keep it the hell out of of melee. The sucky Dex can make your big size a really painful liability. I had no problem taking taninim PCs down without bending the rules or straining regarding my adversary builds.
If the GM is uncomfortable with the class, talk - explain it, and if all else fails, strike a gentleman's agreement to not powergame too hard. If the GM is concerned about the ability score boosts, you could agree to 15 pt.-buy vs. 20 pt.-buy, for example.
If it does not fit the GM's vision for the campaign, that's another thing, of course.
"In the Company of..." series of source books tend to make very customizable characters, but I can attest to their balance and sometimes under powered nature compared to core classes. They tend to suffer from having a lot of options, but tend to be specific and niche in many cases (with not a lot of "slots" to fill them with).
1.) For your first question about it being too powerful, not really. The largest bonus is definitely going to be your size (natural weapon dice "size", cmb, cmd, higher str and con) and that's not always useful (small corridors, dungeons, lower bab, lower ac, and lower dex from size mods). You having to take "human" shape is definitely a testament to that as it makes you incredibly weak compared to your dragon shape, in fact it may be unplayable for your use for dungeon exploration as it gets rid of almost all of your abilities and your natural attacks. It is more useful for roleplaying, npc interaction, or disguise. If you want more use, it would probably have to be animal form, or somehow decreasing your size temporarily.
Now, also note that despite you having these options, you barely have any abilities. Its also more difficult to find items that work for you as a dragon due to your body type and the fact that you have to hobble around if you use a magic item that requires you to hold in in your hand.
Not to say that I hate this class/race (I love dragons in general as a rule), but it is a far cry from being a full on dragon.
2.) You generally don't need to care about dex too much. You don't use it for anything besides touch AC and that can be generally mitigated by taking "Enchanted Scales (Su)." 1/2 of your total natural AC bonus is treated as a deflection bonus against touch attacks. Not the end all be all, but it's better than not having it.
Arcanic Drake wrote: "In the Company of..." series of source books tend to make very customizable characters, but I can attest to their balance and sometimes under powered nature compared to core classes. They tend to suffer from having a lot of options, but tend to be specific and niche in many cases (with not a lot of "slots" to fill them with).
1.) For your first question about it being too powerful, not really. The largest bonus is definitely going to be your size (natural weapon dice "size", cmb, cmd, higher str and con) and that's not always useful (small corridors, dungeons, lower bab, lower ac, and lower dex from size mods). You having to take "human" shape is definitely a testament to that as it makes you incredibly weak compared to your dragon shape, in fact it may be unplayable for your use for dungeon exploration as it gets rid of almost all of your abilities and your natural attacks. It is more useful for roleplaying, npc interaction, or disguise. If you want more use, it would probably have to be animal form, or somehow decreasing your size temporarily.
Now, also note that despite you having these options, you barely have any abilities. Its also more difficult to find items that work for you as a dragon due to your body type and the fact that you have to hobble around if you use a magic item that requires you to hold in in your hand.
Not to say that I hate this class/race (I love dragons in general as a rule), but it is a far cry from being a full on dragon.
2.) You generally don't need to care about dex too much. You don't use it for anything besides touch AC and that can be generally mitigated by taking "Enchanted Scales (Su)." 1/2 of your total natural AC bonus is treated as a deflection bonus against touch attacks. Not the end all be all, but it's better than not having it.
Wow, wasn't expecting to get more input on this here.
I've actually started the campaign with this character (grapple build) and he's only just started to shine (he took dirty fighter lvl one and improved grapple at third, where we're at ATM). My DM just had me delay the claws till third level so I wouldn't be outpacing the rest of the party, and the wings until sixth level. Otherwise, I've got the full character sanctioned.
As for humanoid form, I won't have to worry about that till at least 12th level, as I get huge then, and at that point, I can just grapple-->pin-->tie up a creature in one round, so I can (kind of) function in humanoid form. I also will be getting the belt of the weasel, which will give me the compression ability, which will help traversing smaller places.
AC is a problem, but since we use automatic bonus progression, I don't have to worry about item slot loss and the AC items that go in them. And, while it will be VERY expensive at higher levels, I use masterwork armor in combination with armor expert to remove the penalty from race to wear light armor without penalty on attack rolls.
EDIT
Also, the start stats for the character changed, here they are:
16
12
18
11
10
14
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