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Looking at the backgrounds I’m noticing some of the Lore skills granted are essentially covered by a broader skill also granted by the same background. For example, Herbalist gives the Nature skill and the Herbalism Lore skill, Detective gives the Society skill and the Underworld Lore skill, and Animal Whisperer gives you the Nature skill and a terrain Lore skill.
Other than being keyed to a different stat, what benefit does having a lore skill already covered by a more general skill provide? Do you potentially get more in depth knowledge than you otherwise would? Thoughts?
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The Lore is more specialized and would most likely come with a lower DC.
Some lore skills appear to only be used for earn income checks, or for very odd recall knowledge checks during an adventure.
But I feel that some, such as herbalism lore, should allow you to scrounge the wilderness for crafting ingredients (for potions or healer's kits, for example).
Perhaps we will get expanded lore functionality in future supplements. In the meantime, it'll be up to DMs to houserule on appropriate uses.
Some lore skills appear to only be used for earn income checks, or for very odd recall knowledge checks during an adventure.
But I feel that some, such as herbalism lore, should allow you to scrounge the wilderness for crafting ingredients (for potions or healer's kits, for example).
Perhaps we will get expanded lore functionality in future supplements. In the meantime, it'll be up to DMs to houserule on appropriate uses.
"Scrounging for crafting ingredients" sounds like it is basically just Earn Income, though, since Crafting is just a downtime activity anyway. Healer's kits don't have limited uses anymore, do they?
Generally speaking Lore skills aren't meant to have actual adventuring uses. That's what the actual skills are for. There are some very specific examples that break this mold, and if you figure out the shape of the campaign you can probably pick a broadly useful Lore.
But even something like Alcohol Lore can be used to befriend someone who is really into wine, as an example.
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Lore is useless because there are no strict guidelines for how much easier it will make things. Invest in the real skill instead.
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Let's take another example where a lore skill isn't useless.
Sailing Lore. In my most recent pirate-themed campaign, players needed to climb the rigging, set the sails, steer the rudder, get through nasty (and at times magically-induced) storms, guide the ship through dangerous reefs, navigate by the stars and several other skill-based situations.
This was using PF1. Most of those situations were either straight-up profession(sailor) rolls, or else had modifiers from profession (sailor). Other skills like acrobatics, climb, knowledge(nature), diplomacy and intimidate all came into play, but profession (sailor) was there all through those games.
How would I do it with PF2? Seems like Sailing lore will serve the same purpose as profession (sailor) did in PF1. For each task I will look for alternate skills that might prove successful, if at a higher DC.
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That's an interesting comment, because in my PF1 pirate-themed campaign we had several profession (sailor) checks that used the ranks in that skill but keyed off other stats.
This said, there are always going to be inconsistencies with any skill system, and PF2 is no exception. But what I like about it is its greater simplicity (compared to pf1) and robust ability to deal with varied situations.
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The thing which I find amusing about lore skills is that, because they are Int based, you could potentially have a wizard who is better at sailing than, say, a rogue who spent all of their life on a ship.
It's functionally no different than profession being Wis-based, making clerics into better possible soldiers than actual soldiers, who put their points into the physical abilities to actual do, you know, soldiering, it's just amusing.
Imagining Merlin with an eyepatch and a tricorn hat makes me smile.
"Abra kadabra, ye salty dogs."
Intelligence is the most important attribute in a soldier once you hit minimum thresholds of physical fitness.
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The thing which I find amusing about lore skills is that, because they are Int based, you could potentially have a wizard who is better at sailing than, say, a rogue who spent all of their life on a ship.
In fact, its probably quite likely. A character interested in Lore skills can fairly easily multiclass into bard or take Clever Improviser. A wizard (or other high Int character) has a pretty high incentive to do so.
Admittedly, in the specific case of a sailing campaign (mentioned above) the rogue will invest in Lore Sailing and become an expert in it and have assurance. All by level 3 :-)
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Lore is useless because there are no strict guidelines for how much easier it will make things. Invest in the real skill instead.
This is one of the most confusing statements I have read in a while.
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I'd actually argue that, at best, Int would be tied for Wis as their most important skill. An unaware soldier is a dead soldier.Intelligence is the most important attribute in a soldier once you hit minimum thresholds of physical fitness.The thing which I find amusing about lore skills is that, because they are Int based, you could potentially have a wizard who is better at sailing than, say, a rogue who spent all of their life on a ship.
It's functionally no different than profession being Wis-based, making clerics into better possible soldiers than actual soldiers, who put their points into the physical abilities to actual do, you know, soldiering, it's just amusing.
Imagining Merlin with an eyepatch and a tricorn hat makes me smile.
"Abra kadabra, ye salty dogs."
That's for scouts. Vanishingly few soldiers are scouts. Figuring out logistics, creating patrol schedules, setting up camps in defensible/hygienic locations, understanding (and writing) operations orders, spotting tactical and strategic opportunities, and learning new equipment and tasks are all more generally applicable and important.
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Lore is useless because there are no strict guidelines for how much easier it will make things. Invest in the real skill instead.Look at DC charts and go from there.
If there were a rule such as "an appropriate lore makes the check two steps easier" or "reduces the DC by 5", then it would be useful to invest in lores that might come up often, like engineering or architecture (taking Lore(bakery) would still be pointless in all but the most contrived scenarios).
As it stands, the table variance (and individual check variance) will be so broad as to make the value of the lore skill completely arbitrary and unknown, meaning that you should invest in the general skill instead since it does more and you will have a better idea how useful it is.
The thing which I find amusing about lore skills is that, because they are Int based, you could potentially have a wizard who is better at sailing than, say, a rogue who spent all of their life on a ship.
In fact, its probably quite likely. A character interested in Lore skills can fairly easily multiclass into bard or take Clever Improviser. A wizard (or other high Int character) has a pretty high incentive to do so.
Admittedly, in the specific case of a sailing campaign (mentioned above) the rogue will invest in Lore Sailing and become an expert in it and have assurance. All by level 3 :-)
Anybody can have Expert & Assurance by 3.
Skill Feat at 2 for everybody.Skill Increase at 3 for everybody.
Skill Increase at 2 for Rogues who also can start at 1st w/ Assurance if they think there'll be DC 13 & easier rolls they don't want to chance.
And they can get Unmistakable Lore at 2 when they're Experts. Now they can sail daily w/ no qualms while handling tougher situations without outright disaster on the die.
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The thing which I find amusing about lore skills is that, because they are Int based, you could potentially have a wizard who is better at sailing than, say, a rogue who spent all of their life on a ship.
It's functionally no different than profession being Wis-based, making clerics into better possible soldiers than actual soldiers, who put their points into the physical abilities to actual do, you know, soldiering, it's just amusing.
Imagining Merlin with an eyepatch and a tricorn hat makes me smile.
"Abra kadabra, ye salty dogs."
A Wizard with a high INT and Sailing Lore skill might have a lot of knowledge about sailing, but that doesn't necessarily make him better at actually sailing a ship than an experienced sailor. Our hypothetical Wizard's Sailing Lore might be quite useful for plotting an efficient course across the sea or assessing the speed and maneuverability of an enemy ship, but other crucial sailing tasks like climbing the rigging to reef the sails or hauling on the tiller in rough seas should be Acrobatics or Athletics checks, not Lore. Even for officers, gaining the respect of the crew and commanding them effectively should be require Diplomacy or Intimidation-- all the Sailing Lore in the world doesn't help you if your men ignore your orders or mutiny and toss you overboard.
It's up the the GM to call for checks that actually make sense in the context of the story. No one skill should be treated as a carte-blanche, that's just lazy GMing.