Bloodline / Domain / Patron / Spirit / Etc. Spells and Spell-Trigger Items


Rules Questions


Do special spellcasting feature that gives me additional spells, ei Bloodlines, Domains, Patrons, Spirits, and so forth, allow for the use of Spell-Trigger items?

For example, Greater Magic Weapon is not normally a Witch spell, but it is a Strength Patron spell. If a Witch with the Strength Patron attempts to use a Staff of Greater Magic Weapon, would they need to make a Use Magic Device check to use it? If yes, they would use their caster level if it was higher than that of the staff, right?

Liberty's Edge

Depend on what the ability does.
If it adds the spell to your spell list you can use spell trigger items without problems. If instead it allows you to cast a spell but it doesn't add it to your spell list you must use UMD.

UMD is one of those skills that would benefit for a way longer explanation of how it works.
In the list of the DCs there isn't a "use staff" line, so you need to emulate the class feature (spell list) of an appropriate class. The class level in the emulated class is your UMD result minus 20. As you are emulating a class you use the appropriate characteristic in the emulated class for the DC of the spell.

Quote:

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment

with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).


In the specific case of a witch with the strength patron using a staff with greater magic weapon, it would be on their spell list and they would not need to use UMD to activate it. Their caster level would be used if it was higher than that of the staff.

I think this would be the commonest situation with features like that but I'm not willing to declare it true for everything.


An example of when it doesn't work is cleric domain spells. These are not added to your spell list. A fire domain cleric would still need Use Magic Device or some other separate ability to activate a wand of fireball.

Liberty's Edge

blahpers wrote:
An example of when it doesn't work is cleric domain spells. These are not added to your spell list. A fire domain cleric would still need Use Magic Device or some other separate ability to activate a wand of fireball.
FAQ wrote:

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

Domains are a class feature of the clerics. The text of the CRB is vintage, written well before the complications of the later books and it doesn't incorporate the text to clarify one way or the other, so I am not convinced by your example.

AFAIK, a cleric with the fire domain has no problem using a wand of fireballs and can write and use a scroll of Fireball (divine).


I think that quote from the FAQ settles it rather decisively, thanks Diego.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Domains are a class feature of the clerics. The text of the CRB is vintage, written well before the complications of the later books and it doesn't incorporate the text to clarify one way or the other, so I am not convinced by your example.

AFAIK, a cleric with the fire domain has no problem using a wand of fireballs and can write and use a scroll of Fireball (divine).

Quote:
If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot.

That seems to indicate that domain spells are not considered to be on the cleric's spell list. Otherwise they would be able to prepare it in their normal slots, as the FAQ indicates that the spells are added to a class's spell list.

Quote:
Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class.


I prefer the interpration that does not lead to a cleric being able to craft a scroll or wand they are in incapable of using. So I take the faq as a general rule, with the specific exception that domain spells can only be ptepped in domain slots, but are otherwise comsidered on the cleric's class list.

Liberty's Edge

I use the same interpretation used by Java Man.
Note that there are archetypes that allow you to use the normal slots to prepare domain spells, but, AFAIK, they don't say that you add the domain spells to your spell list.

Here is one:

Ecclesitheurge (Archetype) wrote:


Domain Mastery: At 1st level, when an ecclesitheurge chooses his cleric domains, he designates one as his primary domain and the other as his secondary domain.
An ecclesitheurge can use his non-domain spell slots to prepare spells from his primary domain’s spell list.
Each day when he prepares spells, an ecclesitheurge can select a different domain granted by his deity to gain access to that domain’s spell list instead of his secondary domain spell list. He does not lose access to his actual secondary domain’s granted powers or gain access to the other domain’s granted powers. For example, an ecclesitheurge of Sarenrae with Glory and his primary domain and Good as his secondary domain can choose to gain access to the Healing domain; until the next time he prepares spells, he uses the Healing domain spell list as his secondary domain spell list instead of the Good domain spell list, but still keeps the granted powers of the Good domain and does not gain the granted powers of the Healing domain.
This ability alters the normal domain ability.


Domain spells are not added to a cleric's list of spells known, so the FAQ doesn't apply.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

If my shaman takes the fire spirit, he gains access to fire spirit magic which has fireball. Is it on his shaman spell list? No, it's spirit magic which like domains is a separate set of spell slots. But I would think that I could craft a wand of fireballs, or is that impossible as well. Could he use it if he can make it?


The shaman could create a wand of fireballs because he can provide the fireball prerequisite, but the shaman couldn't use it. It's the same situation as a cleric creating a wand of fireballs but getting their wizard buddy to provide the fireball prerequisite.

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