Which spells can you cast while raging ?


Rules Discussion

Liberty's Edge

When you don't have the Moment of Clarity feat or do not want to use it.

I am talking all spells here, including innate spells, focus spells, composition cantrips. Everything.


At a glance, it looks like only the verbal component makes a spell gain the concentrate trait. So you should be able to cast all spells without that component while raging.


Well, you can't use anything with the concentrate trait. Spells themselves don't have that on their own, but they can get it via the spell components used to cast them.

Somatic components add the Manipulate trait. So do Material and Focus components. Verbal, however, adds the Concentrate trait, so spells without verbal components should be fine. How many spells require verbal?

EDIT: NINJA'D

Liberty's Edge

What about spells cast by a Bard who replaces verbal with playing an instrument ?

What about composition spells that do not have the verbal component but require using the Performance skill ?

Maybe there are other less obvious cases too.


The Raven Black wrote:
What about spells cast by a Bard who replaces verbal with playing an instrument ?

That doesn't change the action to another type. You can use an instrument to do a verbal action, but it's still verbal and thus still has the concentration trait.

Quote:
What about composition spells that do not have the verbal component but require using the Performance skill ?

A Performance check by itself doesn't have any traits. The action has traits. And if it's a spell and not verbal, it doesn't have the concentration trait.

Liberty's Edge

Blave wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
What about spells cast by a Bard who replaces verbal with playing an instrument ?
That doesn't change the action to another type. You can use an instrument to do a verbal action, but it's still verbal and thus still has the concentration trait.

I see. There is indeed a discrepancy between the description of the Bard class, page 96, and the text about substituting components in the Magic chapter, page 303.

The former indicates that you can play instruments instead of speaking for spells requiring verbal component, which thus seems to stay relevant and the spell would keep the Concentration trait.

The latter states that playing an instrument can replace the verbal component. In this case, the spell does not get the Concentration trait.

My guess is that the latter is correct, since playing an instrument instead of speaking would bring almost zero benefits otherwise. Also the first wording is a bit ambiguous, while the second is clearer.


Agreed. I didn't expect the spell chapter to have a different/more precise description for bardic spellcasting than the actual class description. My bad.

Playing an instrument does indeed count as Focus Component so you can furiously play your fiddle to cast spells in the middle of combat, I guess.


Blave wrote:

Agreed. I didn't expect the spell chapter to have a different/more precise description for bardic spellcasting than the actual class description. My bad.

Playing an instrument does indeed count as Focus Component so you can furiously play your fiddle to cast spells in the middle of combat, I guess.

While at first, I imagined Devil Went Down to Georgia being played furiously, I couldn't help but remember this video that perfectly shows some furious playing. And this one is just completely out of control. I don'y think there's a more perfect example of "Bardbarians" than these two.

Shadow Lodge

Aside from bardic substitution (which I'll certainly be looking in to, thanks) there's only 13 spells to pick from. That's if you count single-action heal & harm. But hey, you get Jump at 1, Invisibility and Silence at 2, and a few higher level options (3@3, 2@5, 1@6, 2@8)


Having your hand(s) tied up with an instrument while raging doesn't seem obviously better than just spending the feat and the action if you want to cast while holding your greataxe.

Liberty's Edge

Alas. Mark Seifter clarified that the Concentration trait stays even if verbal is substituted.


The Raven Black wrote:
Alas. Mark Seifter clarified that the Concentration trait stays even if verbal is substituted.

Do you have the source on that? I haven't come across it yet.

Liberty's Edge

Alyran wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Alas. Mark Seifter clarified that the Concentration trait stays even if verbal is substituted.
Do you have the source on that? I haven't come across it yet.

It's in the Bardbarian - can you cast while raging? thread on this here rules forum.


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It makes sense. If it requires concentration to speak then surely it requires concentration to play an instrument. I'm not sure why that should surprise anyone....

Liberty's Edge

Bidmaron wrote:
It makes sense. If it requires concentration to speak then surely it requires concentration to play an instrument. I'm not sure why that should surprise anyone....

What is obvious to one might not be clear for another. Which is why there is a Rules forum. And clarification by a dev is always welcome, even if it does not go in the direction I hope for.

I think precisely reciting words of magical power is far from usual language thus requiring Concentration. I was hoping playing an instrument was easier and thus lacked the trait.

And I have trouble finding a situation where playing is so much more useful than verbalizing to cast spells.

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