| Iryani Calahan |
I am in the process of making a Human Cavalier for a homebrew game. For funsies, and to reduce time later, I'm picking out what feats I will want at later levels, unless something changes. His main weapon is going to be a lance, and I want to make sure I understand how various bonuses would stack.
Lances do 1d8 for a medium weapon, x3 Critical, and do double damage from the back of a charging mount. In this case, wielding a lance one-handed while mounted would do 2d8 on a charge attack, and 6d8 on a successful critical.
With the Spirited Charge feat, a lance does triple damage on a charge. I understand this to mean it replaces the normal double damage, so 3d8 on a charge, and 9d8 on a critical.
(Alternatively, 4d8 on a charge, and 12d8 on a critical, if I am mistaken here).
At level 14, the cavalier can take Mounted Skirmisher. With three attacks at that level, each successful hit after a charge would do 3d8 (9d8 critical). Or does the normal rule for a charge (only one attack) override the multiple attacks granted by this feat?
Finally, the cavalier Capstone ability grants the same benefit as the Spirited Charge feat.
Would this move the charging lance attack from 3d8 to 5d8 (15d8 crit), or 4d8 to 6d8 (18d8 crit)?
Looking at these numbers laid out, I can't help but feel like I calculated incorrectly.
Any helpful input is appreciated.
| Lelomenia |
Damage multipliers in pathfinder add; they don’t multiply. Which is to say x2 damage for lance and x3 damage for critical turns into x4 damage (you get one extra d8 from the charge and 2 extra d8s from the crit); the extra damage from the crit isn’t affected by whether you were charging.
With spirited charge, you are x3 for charging and x3 for crit, which is x5, 5d8 if you crit while charging. I believe that the capstone should stack with lance and spirited charge and crit, for a x4 charge damage, x3 crit, equals x6 crit damage on a charge. 6d8. Note that your challenge bonus, power attack bonus, strength bonus, enhancement bonus, are all multiplied by that x6 as well, so the weapon damage isn’t a big thing. You should be at something like (1d8 + 40) x 6 on a charging crit.
Lance damage doubling on a charge is only for the first attack, so lance pouncing isn’t quite that amazing. Even if that wasn’t the case, moving and then full attacking isn’t charging (mounted skirmisher lets you move and full attack, but it doesn’t say you can full attack on a charge), so there wouldn’t be double lance damage on any hit.
| MrCharisma |
Lances do 1d8 for a medium weapon, x3 Critical, and do double damage from the back of a charging mount. In this case, wielding a lance one-handed while mounted would do 2d8 on a charge attack, and 6d8 on a successful critical.
So in Pathfinder "double" doesn't actually mean double. It means "+100%". The diference isn't obvious until you hit something like this, where a critical is "triple" (which is actually "+200%"), and on a charge you deal "double" (which is actually "+100%"). In this case you don't get 6X damage, you get +300% damage, which is only 4X damage.
With the Spirited Charge feat, a lance does triple damage on a charge. I understand this to mean it replaces the normal double damage, so 3d8 on a charge, and 9d8 on a critical.
(Alternatively, 4d8 on a charge, and 12d8 on a critical, if I am mistaken here).
With the above knowledge about how "double" and "triple" work in Pathfinder, essentially what Spirited Charge is doing is giving you another +100% damage on top of what you'd normally do. The end result is that you get 3X damage on a charge, or 5X damage if you crit. This has already taken into account the relevant multipliers, so you don't need to add anything to it.
At level 14, the cavalier can take Mounted Skirmisher. With three attacks at that level, each successful hit after a charge would do 3d8 (9d8 critical). Or does the normal rule for a charge (only one attack) override the multiple attacks granted by this feat?
I'm not super familiar with this one. If it lets you charge and full-attack then this is amazing. Maybe let someone else who has more experience with mounted combat comment on this one.
Finally, the cavalier Capstone ability grants the same benefit as the Spirited Charge feat.
** spoiler omitted **
Would this move the charging lance attack from 3d8 to 5d8 (15d8 crit), or 4d8 to 6d8 (18d8 crit)?
The Capstone ability seems to overlap - and not stack - with Spirited Charge. This means that if you take Spirited Charge this ability isn't adding any damage. Since capstones are supposed to be something special your GM might let you add something here. I don't usually pay much attention to capstones though, since not many people actually play at that level.
| zza ni |
for a charging build i would recommend getting the rhino charge feat. let you charge each turn if you use your movement to get a way (might provoke aoo depend on reach and build etc).
just charge in. next turn move away and ready to charge once you say -'have at thee!' golden, really.
also work very well for pouncing chargers, not just lancers. (although they can also just full attack if they want to, mostly used for them tigers who get special attack on a charge)
| Wonderstell |
Iryani Calahan wrote:At level 14, the cavalier can take Mounted Skirmisher. With three attacks at that level, each successful hit after a charge would do 3d8 (9d8 critical). Or does the normal rule for a charge (only one attack) override the multiple attacks granted by this feat?I'm not super familiar with this one. If it lets you charge and full-attack then this is amazing. Maybe let someone else who has more experience with mounted combat comment on this one.
'
The Pounce and Lance FAQ states that you only get the increased damage from Lance/Spirited Charge on your first attack during a charge with pounce, but it isn't applicable here since we're not actually charging.Mounted Combat: When making a charge while mounted, which creature charges? The rider or the mount?
Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.
This change will be reflected in future printings of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook
Unless both rider and mount uses the charge action, it is not a "mounted charge" and will not benefit from Lance/Spirited Charge. So since Mounted Skirmisher only gives us the option to take the full-attack action (in place of the full-round action of charging), it would not be a mounted charge.
Basically, Mounted Skirmisher can actually result in less damage than the x3 Lance attack, but it's useful in those situations when you're not in a position to charge and within a double-move.
Btw, neither Archives or SRD has actually updated the Mounted Combat rules with the FAQ so it's impossible to know intent unless you've read this FAQ.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
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When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
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