Advice on combat maneuvers brawler

[Patol]

I'd like to build a brawler that plays around flurry of maneuvers & pummeling charge, but i've read a lot of negative things about it : Having low AC, maneuvers getting difficult the more you level up, having to specialize in one type of maneuver...

Here's what the build could look like:

Human Brawler
STR:16 DEX:14 CON:14 INT:10 WIS:14 CHA:10

Using unarmed strikes, light armor & shield.

Feats (Human= H Brawler = B):
H1 : Dirty Fighting or Combat Expertise
H1 : Improved Trip
B2 : Improved Disarm
H3 : Power Attack
B3 : Maneuver Training (Trip)
H5 : Combat Reflexes or something else
B5 : Ki Throw (or something else if flexing it is better)
H7 : Pummeling Style
B8 : Pummeling Charge

Depending on the situation, i'd flex Greater Trip or Greater Disarm when i need to do a combat maneuver.

The build could potentially reach lvl 15 and would be used in a heavily melee-focused party.

I'd like to be versatile regarding maneuvers (e.g. trip AND disarm) but i don't know if that's viable. What do you think about it?

[Scott Wilhelm]

My instinct is that a Tripping character should use a Tripping Weapon. I worry a lot about getting Tripped by your own Trip attempt, and if that might happen with a Tripping Weapon, you can drop the weapon rather than get Tripped yourself.

The Belt of Impossible Action (thank you, Wonderstell) will let you Trip opponents too big. So will the Harder they Fall Feat, but that is a Teamwork Feat.

The weapon that comes to mind for Tripping and Disarming is a Flail.

[Patol]

You're right, but using a weapon wouldn't allow me to use pummeling style/charge and ki throw.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Pummeling Style combines Trip, Reposition, and Flurry.
Ki Throw combines Trip and Bull Rush.
You are talking about combining Trip and Disarm.

All that is great stuff, but I think your build is going in too many directions at once. You should think about which things are the ones you want to focus on first, and maybe add new tricks to your bag later.

You should consider not being a Brawler depending on which things you want to focus on. For instance, it looks like you want Attacks of Opportunity, and for that, I recommend a big weapon that does lots of damage, but Brawlers don't use those. For a Weapon that Trips, Disarms, and does lots of Damage, that's the Heavy Flail, also not really for Brawlers. People like Tripping with Reach Polearms like the Horsechopper or Fauchard. Whips work well for that, too, so maybe Brawler's okay since Fauchard and Whip are exotic weapons, anyway.

Considering both Attacks of Opportunity and Size-Limit Combat Maneuvers, you might want to go into Teamwork Feat territory, which probably means picking certain classes like Inquisitor or Cavalier or something.

[Wonderstell]

Oh, so you're starting at level 8?

The problem with Trip and Disarm is that they're both easily negated, so they're not very reliable. But Brawler is a good class if you want to be versatile, and adapt on the fly.
So you could leave out the Improved Maneuver feats, and flex into the Imp/Greater version when you need a certain maneuver.

Otherwise, the Dirty Trick maneuver is pretty fun since you can inflict several different conditions. Getting Dirty Trick Master at level 12 allows you to completely shut down enemies, too.

[Patol]

Wonderstell wrote:

Oh, so you're starting at level 8?

We are starting from level 1 but i was sure i wanted pummeling charge so i tried to build until that level.

Following your suggestion, i would replace combat reflexes with improved dirty tricks

[Wonderstell]

If you're starting from level 1, I'd try to get something online as soon as possible.

Battle Dancer Brawler, Human or Half-Elf
1 Dirty Fighting, EWP: Double-Chained Kama (Racial), Martial Flexibility
2 Combat Reflexes (B), Rolling Flurry

This is a really solid base which gives you a lot of options in combat, even at the low level you're at.
Using a reach weapon allows you to make Disarm/Trip maneuvers without provoking as long as you're outside of your opponents threatened area, and with the Rolling Flurry ability you can reach enemies up to 20 ft away and full-attack them within a turn. It's also a great way to negate enemy full-attacks, since you can simply walk out of their threatened area as part of your Flurry.

The Double-Chained Kama also has the Trip property, which allows you to drop it instead of going prone on a -10 failed trip attempt. This has great synergy with the hidden ability of this weapon, which is to retrieve it as a free action if you drop it. So if you want to Trip/Disarm, the Double-Chained Kama is the optimal weapon.

Double-Chained Kama:

The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve it as a free action by pulling on the chain.

***

I'd probably dip one level into Bloodrager for Rage, Fast Movement, and access to wands at level 3. Then take the Kitsune Style feats instead of Pummeling since you'd end up with the ability to full-attack anything within 35 ft if you're Enlarged and flex into Lunge.

[Patol]

Sounds nice, where does the rolling flurry ability come from? I can't find it anywhere

[Wonderstell]

It's from the Battle Dancer archetype, and I'd actually recommend dumping Cha even if you get one Cha-dependent ability.

Rolling Flurry:

When a battle dancer uses her brawler’s flurry, she must move 5 feet before each melee attack or combat maneuver. If she is unable to move 5 feet, she can’t attempt any further attacks or combat maneuvers. She can’t exceed her maximum speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity if the brawler would be able to take a 5-foot step normally; if she would be unable to (for instance, if she were in difficult terrain), the movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless she succeeds at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. While using this ability, she can still take her normal 5-foot step before or after making her attacks.

***

So you can 5-ft step towards an enemy, then shuffle another 5 ft closer with your Rolling Flurry and attack with your reach weapon.
Or you do the opposite and shuffle away from an adjacent (melee) enemy, and finish with a five-foot step so that they are forced to charge/move if they want to attack you. Which gives you an AoO every turn in addition to your full-attack.

[Patol]

I've looked into battle dancer, it looks fun but the lack of AC and will save seems to be quite a problem (CHA based instead of WIS).

[Wonderstell]

Patol wrote:

I've looked into battle dancer, it looks fun but the lack of AC and will save seems to be quite a problem (CHA based instead of WIS).

Yup, you still want Wisdom. The real benefit of Dancing Dodge is to interrupt enemy full-attacks as an Immediate action, so you'd better just keep your Charisma at 7 and pretend the Charisma bonus didn't exist.

The AC is mostly a problem if you encounter many ranged foes, as the whole idea of the Battle Dancer is to prevent enemies from ever getting a full-attack on you. But you could pick up heavier armor and the Unhindering Shield feat if your AC bothers you.

[Ryan Freire]

I'll second picking dirty trick. Not only is it mechanically a solid debuffer. You can just reflavor it as some sort of special unarmed combat technique.

[Wonderstell]

Here's the Disarm/Trip/Dirty Trick build I hinted at earlier. I would take the Empathic Diplomat regional trait to use Wisdom for Diplomacy, as you get it as a Class skill from Urban Bloodrager.

Lv 7:

Battle Dancer 1-2
1 Dirty Fighting, Combat Reflexes (Human), Martial Flexibility
2 EWP: Double-Chained Kama (B, retrained at Brawler 5), Rolling Flurry

Urban Blood Conduit Bloodrager 1
3 Extra Rage, Improved Trip (B), Hedgehog Bloodline Familiar

Battle Dancer 3-6
4
5 Improved Dirty Trick
6 Kitsune Style (B), Kitsune Tricks (B)
7 Kitsune Vengeance

Magic Items:
Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Stone (1,500 gp) - Proficiency with the Double-Chained Kama
Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism (2,000) - Given to your familiar
Wand of Enlarge Person - Used to fill the Purple Prism with Enlarge Person

***

Your Familiar enlarges you at the start of combat, and you may want to apply the Rage to your dexterity to get +2/+2 to Str/Dex. You enter your style, and flex into Greater Trip/Greater Dirty Trick/Dedicated Adversary/Power Attack/Etc, depending on your enemies.

So you threaten 20 ft out, take AoO on approaching enemies to either make an Dirty Trick maneuver (Kitsune Vengance), or Trip them and then make a Dirty Trick maneuver with the AoO from Greater Trip. And if they ever manage to get close to you, simply walk 20 ft away from them with your 5-ft step and three attacks from your Flurry (tripping and disarming as you go).

[Patol]

Wonderstell wrote:

Urban Blood Conduit Bloodrager 1

Is it allowed to combine both archetypes?

[Wonderstell]

Yup, as long as they don't alter or replace the same thing.

Advanced Player's Guide pg 72, Archetypes: Alternate Class Features wrote:

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

I'm usually using this site when I check archetype stacking, but it's not perfect.