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Hi all! I wasn't sure if this is the right board for it, or the PF2 one, but I'd like to ask the developers about their stance on firearms on Golarion!
What I mean is: Firearms were present, but still quite "exotic" in 1e. However, 10 years have passed. It's plenty of time for artisans in other regions outside Alkenstar to get to know the new technology. Surely it won't be like every town guard carrying a musket, but did firearms become more ubiquitous, since the last setting guide came out?
Honestly, I'd rather like that, as a flavor aspect, since I always liked the "renaissance-fantasy" style games like WFRPG, or the old Confrontation wargame's setting (Aarklash), or some domains of Ravenloft had and most recently, the Pillars of Eternity games. I jsut really dig the aesthetical and flavor side and I think it makes quite a few staple things much more enjoyable, like swasbuckler/musketeer type characters, or pirate stuff in general. Also, I think Golarion always leaned to this direction, at least the central region with nations like Cheliax, Taldor, Andoran, or Ustalav, not to mention others, which are all quite advanced beyond the medieval-ish "strict" sword and sorcery, let alone dark ages aesthetics and technological level.
So what do you think and what the devs have to say about it? Would we see firearms becoming more normal and widespread on Golarion? :)
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Golarion might have seen 10 years of development, but they player base of Pathfinder players has still very much the same non-insignificant chunk of people who freak out when you mix guns in their traditional medieval fantasy.
And they are ultimately the ones who determine the place and scale of firearms in Golarion.
Officialy, Alkenstar is very protective about their technology, sometimes selling ready-to-use products, but never the technology to create them. They Think about how IRL China was protective about the technology to produce silk. It would take a lot more time before guns become widespread. And considering that the progress in Golarion seems to be slow in general (they stay thousdands of years in 'medieval' times) it may take even longer.
I also believe that most of the players are happy with current setting, so the writers aren't going to change that. They provided the rules for people who'd prefer more widespread guns, to use in home games, but they're not going to change the official setting.
There's also much less of an incentive to adopt guns than in the real world. Bows and crossbows hold their own much better (well, xbows need specific archetyping but still). Until the next generation of firearms at least, which could take a while.
I think the current status quo suits most players (those not opposed to guns on principle alone at least) so I agree that it's likely to stay that way.
Plus, you know, magic is fairly common as well. There's just enough competition that guns don't get to take over completely.
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Officialy, Alkenstar is very protective about their technology, sometimes selling ready-to-use products, but never the technology to create them. They Think about how IRL China was protective about the technology to produce silk. It would take a lot more time before guns become widespread. And considering that the progress in Golarion seems to be slow in general (they stay thousdands of years in 'medieval' times) it may take even longer.
I think the "technology not advancing for thousand years" thing has more to do with repeated worldwide calamities and the fact that the writers themselves said they went overboard with dates.
About protecting the technology: I don't think it'd work with firearms. It's not a special metal that they need and people know about gunpowder. The mechanisms are not that hard. Sure, there'd be plenty of botched attempts, but I think 10 years is enough to at least have some gunsmiths in other, developed nations' cities around the Inner Sea. Folks wozld surely figure out how to make a barrel,that works, as they already do things far beyond that.
I also believe that most of the players are happy with current setting, so the writers aren't going to change that. They provided the rules for people who'd prefer more widespread guns, to use in home games, but they're not going to change the official setting.
The settign is already changing, so I don't see why they can't make firearms a bit more widespread and present. Not replacing bows and crossbows (as they didn't in history either, for a long time) and not suddenly making the setting into a 18th century resembling one with massive standing armies with muskets and artillery, but again, I could totally see them being more common.
Also, to be honest, I never get this animosity toward firearms in fantasy. Many popular fantasy worlds have them, it's just somehow D&D (and derivatives) that handled them as the redheaded step-child and even then, not even every D&D setting did that.
As for Golarion, the technological level in developed countries are already much higher than medieval (and much higher than in the Forgotten REalms, or Greyhawk, for example). The aesthetical presentation reflects that in the illustrations in the books, like clothes and buildings, as well as cultural trappings in the writeups. It just always felt strange that people are okay with all that, to have things in the setting way beyond the medieval era, but firearms are a barely tolerated thing for many.
I think it wouldn't change the setting significantly, to have them as a more common sight (in certain regions, like Cheliax, or Andoran, or Ustalav, not in, for example, the Land of The Mammoth Lords, or even Varisia), they'd perfectly fit for the aesthetics of those regions. I'd even go as far to say there are many concepts and things that just feel strange and out of place without them.
Again, I1m not saying I want every character carrying pistols and armies with guns and artillery (at least not as a norm, maybe the most advanced countries could have some artillery as an experiment int heir armies). But I'd definitely like to see firearms in hands of characters and npcs who aren't gunslingers and aren't from Alkenstar and overall, be them more present on pictures and all that. Just to show they are more common.
Yeah, mechanically unless you get Gun Training of equivalent and the ability to ignore misfire somehow firearms are pretty much strictly worse than bows. And definitely much more expensive.
And outside of places where magic isn't available, there's going to be a lot less incentive to adopt them in the Golarion universe.
Well, Golarion is roughly placed in the equivalent of the Late Middle Ages in terms of technological development, and has been for quite a while. Thousands of years, as it were, with only the first hints that it might move out of it in the future.
Looking at our world, one of the primary catalysts for the end of the medieval period was forced innovation- as the Black Plague wiped out a third of the civilized world, more or less, people suddenly had to figure out all sorts of new ways to accomplish the same task with fewer people, which in turn drove technological enhancement, and that, as much as anything, was what helped move the world out of the Medieval period. In Golarion, there hasn't been any real need to innovate technology, as without a massive catastrophe to force innovation, the status quo can be easily maintained.
In addition, it's important to remember that, for Golarion, it's Magic, not Science, that is the primary field of research. Alchemy is a legitimate pursuit, and so the intellectuals of the world, who in our history began making fundamental discoveries when their initial experiments didn't work, are instead bending the laws of nature themselves. Virtually any innovations that would come about would be for the magically inclined. Tremendously helpful breakthroughs are almost certainly being made regularly, but they don't add to the lives of the common folk.
Finally, Golarion is far, far more insular than Earth was at this time period. You have mammoth-riding barbarians who share a border with a place that has laser guns. Innovation does not travel very fast in Golarion, which makes sense, considering all the nasty ways you might die traveling from point A to point B. Just take a look at any random encounter table to see that. The world is very, very hostile, so there's less international cooperation needed to drive advancement. The one exception to this, of course, is the magically inclined, who can teleport wherever they feel like, which is why magic is so powerful.
So, all that combined, with a lack of need for innovation, any innovative power being put towards magical, not technological research, and a very, very hostile world discouraging the spread of ideas, it makes sense that Golarion might be teetering on the edge of its own Renaissance, however, unless something really drastic happens (like the Black Plague), there won't be any drive to push it over the edge. Therefore, it'll stay locked in this state of advancement for years to come.
Yeah, mechanically unless you get Gun Training of equivalent and the ability to ignore misfire somehow firearms are pretty much strictly worse than bows. And definitely much more expensive.
And outside of places where magic isn't available, there's going to be a lot less incentive to adopt them in the Golarion universe.
Ravenloft 3e remedied that, if I remember correctly, by making them martial weapons in the domains with higher technological level. But I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've read the books.
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Well, Golarion is roughly placed in the equivalent of the Late Middle Ages in terms of technological development, and has been for quite a while. Thousands of years, as it were, with only the first hints that it might move out of it in the future.
Looking at our world, one of the primary catalysts for the end of the medieval period was forced innovation- as the Black Plague wiped out a third of the civilized world, more or less, people suddenly had to figure out all sorts of new ways to accomplish the same task with fewer people, which in turn drove technological enhancement, and that, as much as anything, was what helped move the world out of the Medieval period. In Golarion, there hasn't been any real need to innovate technology, as without a massive catastrophe to force innovation, the status quo can be easily maintained.
In addition, it's important to remember that, for Golarion, it's Magic, not Science, that is the primary field of research. Alchemy is a legitimate pursuit, and so the intellectuals of the world, who in our history began making fundamental discoveries when their initial experiments didn't work, are instead bending the laws of nature themselves. Virtually any innovations that would come about would be for the magically inclined. Tremendously helpful breakthroughs are almost certainly being made regularly, but they don't add to the lives of the common folk.
Finally, Golarion is far, far more insular than Earth was at this time period. You have mammoth-riding barbarians who share a border with a place that has laser guns. Innovation does not travel very fast in Golarion, which makes sense, considering all the nasty ways you might die traveling from point A to point B. Just take a look at any random encounter table to see that. The world is very, very hostile, so there's less international cooperation needed to drive advancement. The one exception to this, of course, is the magically inclined, who can teleport wherever they feel like, which is why magic is so powerful.
So, all...
Those are common arguments against technological development in general, and frequently brought up regarding fantasy settings. I don't even say they are not true(ish), because they do make sense. Trouble is, a lot of settings tend to overlook MANY technological developments, that are beyond medieval (like the printing press, for example, but there are others), so clearly, innovations do spread, at least alng trade routes and among the more developed regions.
Also, Golarion is really a big kitchen sink. There are regions with dark ages tech level in general, or even below, right to stone age, in some places. At the same time, it has developed regions clearly on the renaissance level or even beyond.
The same reasons why firearms would be appreciated among the non-magic user population are roughly the same as it was in our real history, I believe. For teh average person, they are convenient. They don't rely on strength, need little training to use. The same could be same about crossbows, yeah, but a pistol takes up much smaller space, than a crossbow, as a personal weapon and still has quite good stopping power.
But I don't want to be argumentative. I'd like to hear the devs stance on it, because curiosity and I still think making them more common would be totally justifiable and would suit better the overall outlook of several regions, than the current situation. Also, as I mentioned, I jsut like renaissance fantasy, like Pillars of Eternity, or WHFRPG. I like the feeling and I think a lot of settings are more closer to that period, because they want cool things like classic vampire hunters and swashbuckling duellists and pirates yet they frequently exclude gunpowder. so, we're getting "musketeeers" with the wide hats and rapiers, but without muskets and the msot stereotypical pirates with 17-18th century ships equipped with ballistae...
It just never felt right for me. :D So i thought the 10 year's pass would be a good opportunity to Golarion to step forward and just acknowledge it's renaissance elements to their fullest (while not abandoning the others, of course).
However, if the majority doesn't want it to change, for whatever reason, I guess it wont. It's strange for me, given that the gunslinger is a fairly popular class even.
Creative Director
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Firearms are a part of the setting and will continue to be therein. You'll see an NPC with a firearm in the 2nd adventure for the Age of Ashes Adventure Path, and you'll be seeing pictures of ships armed with cannons before then. They won't be "taking over the setting" at all, but they'll likely be about as commonplace in Golarion as they were yesterday.
Player facing rules for firearms will need to wait a bit longer, but there'll be GM facing flavor and stuff to keep their presence in the setting until then.
It's also somewhat awkward to assume that Golarion fits perfectly into real-world eras as well. Part of it being a fantasy setting is that it allows us to mix and match things as we feel augments the setting's flavor and tone. Adhering to a strict "this is the order and timing of which things were invented in the real world" limits that.
Ravenloft 3e remedied that, if I remember correctly, by making them martial weapons in the domains with higher technological level. But I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've read the books.Yeah, mechanically unless you get Gun Training of equivalent and the ability to ignore misfire somehow firearms are pretty much strictly worse than bows. And definitely much more expensive.
And outside of places where magic isn't available, there's going to be a lot less incentive to adopt them in the Golarion universe.
Maybe, but that has little relevance to whats happening in Pathfinder, regardless of if it's PF1 or PF2.
As the T-Rex says, they're going to be about the same level of prominence they've always been.
It's strange for me, given that the gunslinger is a fairly popular class even.
The gunslinger is really only popular as a 5 level dip to min max damage because guns targeted touch AC. Hopefully (IMO), the mechanics in PF2 will end up being a bit different.
Well I think a Gun Archetype will be the go-to for Dip purposes.
Maybe Swashbuckler Archetype too, especially if it synergizes with the former.
(following Hellknight pattern and Dedication counting as umbrella for related Archetypes would make sense)
Going all the way in Swashbuckler seems partially focused on movement and using Skills for innovative combat things,
but I assume they can make that valid 1-20 since they will not be tying it to specific weapon/style in the first place.
In the recent panel, the phrasing was something like “if you like guns, go to Alkenstar, and if you don’t, don’t let your players go there!” As much sense as technology spreading makes, too many fans hate them on principle.
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In the recent panel, the phrasing was something like “if you like guns, go to Alkenstar, and if you don’t, don’t let your players go there!” As much sense as technology spreading makes, too many fans hate them on principle.
I never really got that, to be honest. People want "musketeer" duellists with rapiers, pirates with all the stereotypical trappings, vampire hunters, etc. but guns are anathema. Okay, sure, I guess. For me these never really worked without guns in the picture.
For me, I's say decide if it's purely "dark ages", or early-mid middle ages (as firearms were there in the late middle ages already), or, if it's a kitchen-sink and truly mostly close to renaissance/early modern periods in aethetics, I'd want guns in it.
See all the above-mentioned examples, like Pillars of Eternity. It works, without breaking a fantasy setting and to be honest, felt much more "complete".
I always liked that Golarion and PF went a bit into that direction.
Well, Golarion is really not a medieval setting, but it's often played as one. That's part of it.
If you want classic sword and sorcery, musketeers don't really fit, and I'm pretty sure those who oppose guns don't want them. That'd be way too modern.
It's fine though. As Keftlu (channeling Luis) pointed out, that way it's "optional" enough that you can tailor your game to your table's tastes.
Probably a smart way to do it.
I'm definitely looking forward to guns laking their appearance, but if I end up playing with a GM badly allergic to gunpowder, it's ok, so be it. There can be worse things to deal with around a table.
I'm one of those with an irrational dislike of guns in my fantasy games. Why? I really, really couldn't say. I just... don't like them in my games.
Yet at the same time, if I'm going to be running a pirate or naval-themed game... that instantly changes. A pirate game without cannons and muskets, even with elves and magic in the game, feels wrong to me.
Does it make sense? Not really, no. It's unfortunately just what feels right to me.
Starting with 2 Edt. we will adapt the 3.5 Gun rules from the Iron Kingdoms Gun mages and all. Not in all countries but it will get so that you can buy the material in most of the countries. The price will be a lot higher in some regions.
But we will stop at multi-barreled weapons, because the revolver would be a little too powerful. And that is not even talking about the rifle version^^
Grenades will exist too, but we are still sorting out how to make them stay relevant at higher levels. 1 d10 is not so great later in the game^^