| Finrod84 |
HI,
I'm building a Summoner synthesist with 2 paladin lvl.
I want to use 2 or, at higher level 3 or 4, greatswords.
My question is:
Do i need multiweapon fighting feat for use multiple greatswords?
IMHO i think's not, because multiweapon fighting is basically for use 1 weapon in 1 hand and that doesn't apply for me.
i tryed to put my char on hero lab without multiweapon fighting feat and for example with:
three set of limbs, wielding 3 greatswords and a BAB of +6, the program give me
+6/+1 with the 1° sword
+6 with the 2° sword
+6 with the 3° sword
someone can please confirm if that's right?
thank you
Dennis Deadsky
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This sort of question is why Synthesist Summoners are banned in a lot of games. Sorry, OP, I can't help you except to say, "Please don't do it!". This sort of issue created the need for the 'Unchained Summoner', because the default Summoner's eidolon allows for this sort of exploit.
P.s. Hero lab is NOT going to get that topic right. It's software, and it almost certainly has the mechanics of this sort of edge case incorrect. Just because Hero Lab let's you do it does not mean it's reasonable.
| David knott 242 |
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One point to keep in mind is that by default one of your six hands is primary (-6 to hit when fighting with multiple weapons) and all of the rest are secondary (-10 to hit with multiple weapons, and only half Str mod to damage). The Multiweapon Fighting feat would reduce all of those penalties to -4. At higher levels, you would want to enchant each of those greatswords -- and you would have to enchant them all separately.
If you care at all about having a decent chance to hit and deal damage, you would actually be better off accumulating as many primary natural attacks as you can and buffing them with an Amulet of Mighty Fists -- and there would be no question about the rules legality of doing that.
| Melkiador |
I can’t find an example of a monster that fights with anything bigger than one handed weapons in their off hands. There’s only a couple that fight with a two handed weapon in their main hand.
It’s important to remember that two weapon fighting cares more about metaphorical hands than real hands. An off hand two handed weapon should use similar rules to other off hand weapons.
But really these kinds of shenanigans aren’t the problem with synthesist other than that it hits upon niche situations the rules didn’t bother focusing on.
Dennis Deadsky
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But really these kinds of shenanigans aren’t the problem with synthesist other than that it hits upon niche situations the rules didn’t bother focusing on.
What are some perceived problems with Synthesist Summoner? Would someone like to link old threads?
My understanding is that Synthesist Summoners, while less powerful than some other types of Summoner, pose a conundrum for the GM. The Synthesist will tend to have more HP and better AC than most of other PCs. Any foe capable of seriously threatening the Synthesist will make mincemeat of the rest of the party. The end result is that either encounters are too easy or encounters are too hard.
| Finrod84 |
so, the real problem seems that there isn't a specific rule for manage the situation.
Use the multiweapon fighting is not totally right because i use a 2H weapon when the feat is created for 1 weapon in each hands.
normally when no specific rule manage a situation in Pathfinder we must use the normal rule, that in that case are OP.
i think that's all
| LordKailas |
I can’t find an example of a monster that fights with anything bigger than one handed weapons in their off hands. There’s only a couple that fight with a two handed weapon in their main hand.
It’s important to remember that two weapon fighting cares more about metaphorical hands than real hands. An off hand two handed weapon should use similar rules to other off hand weapons.
But really these kinds of shenanigans aren’t the problem with synthesist other than that it hits upon niche situations the rules didn’t bother focusing on.
This is how I understood it to work. It has less to do with how many hands you have and more with how many weapons you're swinging around.
If I'm a creature with 4 arms and I decide to dual wield two, 2-handed weapons I can do it and I would follow the normal penalties as outlined by the two-weapon fighting rules.
Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat –2 –2
If I have a Base attack of 6 I would expect my attack pattern to be
Weapon 1 +2(6-4)/(1-4)-3
Weapon 2 +2(6-4)
Multi-weapon fighting is the correct feat to use if you are wielding more then 2 weapons. The additional weapons would all attack at the same bonus as weapon 2. If you don't have multi-weapon fighting your off-hand attacks should be 4 less then your primary weapon's first attack.
| Melkiador |
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My understanding is that Synthesist Summoners, while less powerful than some other types of Summoner, pose a conundrum for the GM. The Synthesist will tend to have more HP and better AC than most of other PCs. Any foe capable of seriously threatening the Synthesist will make mincemeat of the rest of the party. The end result is that either encounters are too easy or encounters are too hard.
That's one of the real problems. There is also an issue with it breaking point buy, since you could dump all of your physical stats to 7 and then just replace them with your eidolon. You should really never combine synthesist with point buy. Also, you shouldn't combine synthesist with any character generation method that generally results in sub-par stats, like straight 3d6. Conversely, if you are using a high stat generation method like 5d6 drop the two lowest and reroll 1s, then the synthesist could end up getting outshone by its teammates.
Secondly, the synthesist has an issue with buff consolidation. A regular summoner will need to use up more spells to cast important buffs on both himself and his eidolon. And he will need to make hard choices about when and where to give his eidolon gear instead of himself. But the synthesist gets to keep everything in one package, resulting in a character that is generally much stronger in combat than a regular eidolon of that level.
But getting to do something silly like two weapon fight with 2 handed weapons shouldn't break anyone's game, other than forcing the GM to make a call about how that mechanically works.
| Derklord |
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What are some perceived problems with Synthesist Summoner?
What makes the Synthesist problematic is, in a way, it's usual play style (i.e. charge in first round of combat).
A regular Summoner's eidolon can already outshine most martials, and it's but one of a Summoner's multiple class features. But it's hard to feel resentful towards a Summoner who buffs you with Haste every combat (and possibly other buffs, it's not like he has anything better to do), thus significantly increasing your combat prowess. A Synthesist on the other hand has the same spotlight stealing power, but (as often played at least) without the feelgood effects from infight buffs.This is why Synthesist, although significantly weaker than regular Summoner, is so often banned: It tends to screw inter-party balance, thus making players feel bad. A regular Summoner is less likely to do that (although it can happen, depending on the other PCs, and the players' system mastery).
The Synthesist will tend to have more HP and better AC than most of other PCs. Any foe capable of seriously threatening the Synthesist will make mincemeat of the rest of the party.
That's not a specific Synthesist problem but a problem of power level differences in the party. I wouldn't want to have a tier 5 class (that's the weaker martial classes, i.e. Brawler, Vigilante, Rogue, unRogue, Ninja, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, cMonk, and Fighter without AWT) in a party with a Synthesist, but the same would be true for a regular Summoner or a Wildshape Druid. Unless the tier 5's player has a lot of system mastery, the same would even apply to most of the 6/9 casters.
| Volkard Abendroth |
Dennis Deadsky wrote:What are some perceived problems with Synthesist Summoner?What makes the Synthesist problematic is, in a way, it's usual play style (i.e. charge in first round of combat).
A regular Summoner's eidolon can already outshine most martials, and it's but one of a Summoner's multiple class features. But it's hard to feel resentful towards a Summoner who buffs you with Haste every combat (and possibly other buffs, it's not like he has anything better to do), thus significantly increasing your combat prowess. A Synthesist on the other hand has the same spotlight stealing power, but (as often played at least) without the feelgood effects from infight buffs.This is why Synthesist, although significantly weaker than regular Summoner, is so often banned: It tends to screw inter-party balance, thus making players feel bad. A regular Summoner is less likely to do that (although it can happen, depending on the other PCs, and the players' system mastery).
Dennis Deadsky wrote:The Synthesist will tend to have more HP and better AC than most of other PCs. Any foe capable of seriously threatening the Synthesist will make mincemeat of the rest of the party.That's not a specific Synthesist problem but a problem of power level differences in the party. I wouldn't want to have a tier 5 class (that's the weaker martial classes, i.e. Brawler, Vigilante, Rogue, unRogue, Ninja, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, cMonk, and Fighter without AWT) in a party with a Synthesist, but the same would be true for a regular Summoner or a Wildshape Druid. Unless the tier 5's player has a lot of system mastery, the same would even apply to most of the 6/9 casters.
You should see what a STR focused transumter can do once he gets access to Monstrous Physique.
| Derklord |
What, Deathsnatcher? What I really want to see is a Strong Jaw'd Great Old One Yig with Dimensional Dervish!
Seriously though, I know there's plenty of builds for tier 1&2 classes that makes tier 5 classes cry. I mainly using Summoner and Wildshape Druid as examples because I've personally seen the two of them together (including a pouncing Animal Companion) make a Shocking Grasp Magus feel useless at dealing damage.
Themetricsystem
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The answer you're looking for is probably already out there somewhere in the search feature.
As others have implored you, please do not create this character and try to play him in an actual game with other players unless the whole campaign is nothing but an experiment to see how stupid powerful and broken you each make things.
Summoner on its own is just WAY overpowered on base with their minion on their own having a higher to-hit rate, more attacks, and more damage than pretty much any PC. With the Synthesist Archetype you can easily get away with dumping all physical stats to 5-7 points, getting 15-20 in all Mental Stats, and then merge to have 15-24 in all of your stats, pretty much ALL the time, all this on top of you having twice as much HP, the ability to heal yourself, and your only real weakness is that the GM WILL try to kill you, and likely fail to do so until they get frustrated and start throwing CR+6-7 Challenges at the party in order to threaten just the 1 PC.
TL:DR- Don't do it man, it's not as fun as it sounds unless you're playing a solo game.