How to properly calculate stats of an oni ogre mage that assumes the form of a stone giant using his change shape ability? The ability is supposed to work like giant form I, and impose several size bonuses, but the oni mage is Large to begin with, so I'm not sure that's correct in its case.
If you'll check the chapter on magic, under Transmutation, they have a chart for polymorph effects on larger and small creatures. In the ogre mage example, it would gain a +2 str for the spell, but take a -4 to Str, -2 Con, but a +2 to Dex, for a net -2, +2,-2
Thank you, I knew I've seen this chart somewhere, but I didn't remember where. Although to transform into a Large giant ogre mage's change shape works like giant from I so -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con is combined with +6 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, giving net +2,0,+2.
Just to make sure: the natural armor bonus from giant shape I doesn't stack with ogre mage's existing natural armor, right?
Actually it doesn't affect the strength/stats:
Change Shape (Su)
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their descriptions.
Format: change shape (wolf, beast shape I); Location: SQ, and in Special Abilities for creatures with a unique listing.
...While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form....
This is a case of specific rules (Change shape) over ruling general rules to some degree (polymorph subschool).
Shape change is more about granting a disguise/size bonus to a creature and changing its special abilities, than altering it's stats. Ogre mage in halfling form for instance will have the same Str & Dex, but incr AC and to hit by +2 due to the size change and loose the +5 Natural armour, darkvision, spell resistance and regeneration. In Fire Giant form they gain rock catching, rock throwing, resistance fire 20, vulnerability to cold, +4 natural armour, but looses +5 natural armour, spell resistance, regeneration and darkvision.
And I've probably missed a few bits there - it gets complicated
Actually it doesn't affect the strength/stats
Good catch, I can't believe I missed that.
In Fire Giant form they gain rock catching, rock throwing, resistance fire 20, vulnerability to cold, +4 natural armour, but looses +5 natural armour, spell resistance, regeneration and darkvision.
I guess whether regeneration and spell resistance are dependent on the original form and are lost is subject on GM's discetion.
It also doesn't seem right to me that ogre mage (natural armor +5) transforming into a stone giant (natural armor +11) would end up with lower natural armor than either of these forms. I think that I'll hold on to the clause "Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form" and allow the bonus granted by the giant shape I to stack with the original, up to the natural armor of the form it transforms into, giving it natural armor +9 in stone giant form. If disputed, I'll call it a home rule.
I guess whether regeneration and spell resistance are dependent on the original form and are lost is subject on GM's discetion.
As I read it, the Ex & Su abilities that are not from classes/feats/etc are all dependent on the original form, but this is ultimately a GM call.
It also doesn't seem right to me that ogre mage (natural armor +5) transforming into a stone giant (natural armor +11) would end up with lower natural armor than either of these forms. I think that I'll hold on to the clause "Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form" and allow the bonus granted by the giant shape I to stack with the original, up to the natural armor of the form it transforms into, giving it natural armor +9 in stone giant form. If disputed, I'll call it a home rule.
On a re-read, Natural Armour is neither an Ex or Su ability so I would think this is a reasonable interpretation, however remember it works both ways - an Ogre Mage in small humanoid form (eg halfling) would also keep the base Natural Armour.
I guess whether regeneration and spell resistance are dependent on the original form and are lost is subject on GM's discetion.As I read it, the Ex & Su abilities that are not from classes/feats/etc are all dependent on the original form, but this is ultimately a GM call.
As I understand, polymorph spells change the shape and the appearance of creatures' bodies, not their basic composition. That's why it only gives Disguise bonus, that is it's possible to notice difference by noticing fine details that don't really fit. For example, a humanoid using plant shape remains humanoid, even if he looks like a plant. That's why I don't consider regeneration and spell resistance to depend on a creature's form (read: shape).
It also doesn't seem right to me that ogre mage (natural armor +5) transforming into a stone giant (natural armor +11) would end up with lower natural armor than either of these forms. I think that I'll hold on to the clause "Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form" and allow the bonus granted by the giant shape I to stack with the original, up to the natural armor of the form it transforms into, giving it natural armor +9 in stone giant form. If disputed, I'll call it a home rule.On a re-read, Natural Armour is neither an Ex or Su ability so I would think this is a reasonable interpretation, however remember it works both ways - an Ogre Mage in small humanoid form (eg halfling) would also keep the base Natural Armour.
I've thought about it as losing it temporarily, but beacause new form also has it, it's being brought back, as per "Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form". In other words, the natural armor is kept (end possibly even enhanced) only if the new form also posssess it. If the new form possesses lesser natural armor than the original one, I would only restore natural armor to that of the new form.