Now I've been through the PvP forums quite a bit and there's a ton of topics so we're just gonna go ahead and do another one.
This isn't so much as what constitutes PvP or the normal rules of how damage can be allowed or what the limitations of evil acts are and when to punish them openly. My question pertains to a player consistently playing characters that do little or nothing EVERY session. This has been discussed with the player but time and time again, their response is either Run away or Throw Alchemist Fire at everything. This probably wouldn't be a problem if they did literally anything else ever but 90% of what they do is cause problems for the other characters then in attempts to "solve their own problems" make them worse by pawning it off other people. If this was a shady character concept or any attempt at RP most people probably wouldn't care but it's clear choice by the player. Every character has some "mystery" element where the other society members don't know who they are, when asked to perform skills or knowledges that might have some hint as to what the character does, they decide that the character isn't interested in rolling or (and this has happened several times now) picks a neutral side in the fight and decides to let other players drop or die as they run away or hide. One fight, as a pre-gen, they literally curled into the fetal position and started crying.
Now the lodge has been very patient and puts up with this for the most part just ignoring what they do most of the time but the running gag now is "who's going to be the first to sac a character to out right murder their character".
So that brings me to the main question, if a society member actively sabotages other society members then does little to nothing to EVER help, when is it ok to either report them to the society (out of character, lodge, captain, lt, whoever) or out right murder their character because it's abandoned the group for the last time?
Normally I wouldn't suggest or enforce PvP for none RP elements but it's too the point where they refuse to play, learn, or change. After months of this occurring. It's to where players will bails on tables at the last minute if they find out this person is playing. If it wasn't for the shop we game in, gaining money from them being there, then I'd say toss em right away but is there anyway, in game or out to deal with this situation?
It does seem like killing a character from this person would cause an endless loop of pvp attempts as the player is quite petty and not the brightest bulb to begin with but the patience of all involved is beyond thin at this point. I'm curious what the rest of the world thinks.
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PvP, ie punishing a character in game does nothing to correct bad behavior demonstrated by the player. In many cases it just encourages them to make an ever worse character. All issues like this should follow the same escalation process. First address the issue with the player directly or notify the table GM. If that does not help, notify the event organizer. After that, report the issue to the venture officers over that particular area starting with the VA/VL if there is one, then the closest VC, and finally the RVC over that region
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Sounds like a job for a venture critter.
If they won't handle it, organize a "We're not gaming with that guy" thing, even if you have to take your gaming elsewhere or dm yourself.
you're not going to find an in character solution to this and it's just going to muddy the waters with "but they killed my character"
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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If the player does not want to play in the campaing, why are they at the table in the first place? O.o'
I agree, that pvp is not an answer (and isn't allowed anyway). If a player tries to PvP said character, the correct answer isn't "okay but you lose your character as well" from the table GM, it's "No can do, you can't include the unwilling player in your area of effect/attack".
Escalate to the GM, then to the VA/VL, then to the VC. Point out that the rulebook does say: "Players are responsible for their characters’ actions. “That’s just what my character would do” is not a defense for behaving like a jerk." If the VO can't solve the issue with the player, they should probably be asked not to participate at all (ie. banned).
If you always play at a public store/Cafe/etc, it's probably best to talk about it with the store owner before so that they are aware of the situation. With stores, explaining how the player is driving other players away (thus costing them money in the process) could be a good way to have them help enforce the ban. Otherwise, it can get awkward and annoying if the player starts running around the tables and shouting comments without actually playing, if it goes that far.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The other posters have already given you excellent suggestions, contact your closest VO and try to get help. Without knowing your local situation it's harder to give the right suggestions but I'll try:
- PVP is not the answer, things tend to turn very nasty when something like this happens - though to be fair, considering the actions you described above, if I was stuck at a table with this player, I would likely leave.
- I am not entirely sure what the problematic players want from playing RPGs, it looks a bit like trolling, but it might also be the case that the player is looking for other kinds of RPG experience and this is the closest thing he/she can do to try to scratch that itch.
- Roleplaying usually involves a bit of a social contract (even more so in organized play), everyone is supposed to have fun and we should try not to negatively affect other players. It seems like the other players are interested in playing as agents of the Pathfinder Society and interact with the scenario. I am not entirely sure what the new player wants to do, but it seems like their aims are conflicting.
- Not participating in combat, or aiding in skill checks is a problem, but I assume that the lodge has already tried to communicate this to the player in question.
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Your local VO might have a better grasp of the situation, but in general, if you don't want to play with someone, just don't do it. I don't know about your local signup mechanics, but usually, no gaming is better than bad gaming.
My approach would be to just tell the person: "Sorry, but we don't enjoy playing with you, considering the way you play your characters. It's just not fun for us, so we prefer not to play (here and in public games) to the alternative.
If you still want to play, your only options are to change your playstyle or search for another group."
It's not fun to be this frank, but much preferable to do this in game.
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I hope that your local VA/VL/VC/RVC can help you to resolve the situation, usually, it is better to resolve these things via a phone call/skype chat/email chain. Asking for help on the forum can only do so much.
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Venture-Captain, Online—VTT
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You have lots of good ideas here, I think perhaps the most important part is to ensure the player understands the aim of Society games and the social contract involved. The Guide specifically says;
We ask all participants to respect
their fellow players and to work together to create positive,
memorable experiences. To this end, we reserve the right
to refuse participation to any person for inappropriate
or illegal conduct.
A positive experience. As others have suggested your best path is probably to have a VO talk to the player and explain how their actions are making everyone else feel and not contributing to that positive experience. Roleplaying is great and should be a part of every character imo, but it should also be aimed towards enhancing everyones game and not just for the benefit of the person causing the issues, at the cost of the rest of the table.
If they cannot, or will not, accept that then well, the rest of the quote suggests the ultimate course of action for someone who refuses to participate in Society play in a way that doesn't negatively impact everyone else.
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Venture-Captain, Texas—Austin
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I have dealt with situations like this several times, both before and after becoming a VO. We game in a public FLGS, and are always accepting new players of all types/skill levels. Everyone once in a while, you get people that come in and become quickly disruptive with the way they play.
What I have found to work best is to simple call out the behavior and the consequences of it. This has caused the player to either realize what they are doing and the issues with it, or realize that the game they want to play doesn't work in PFS and stop coming out.
Some examples from my experience with some details changed:
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New Player: [Just after killing a member of a core race in the middle of Absalom] Can I use his bones and other body parts to make tools?
Me: Yes, but that is extremely evil, and will earn you an evil mark, which is a warning that your character will likely be kicked out of the Society for their actions if you continue.
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This player constantly ran away, and used ineffectual tactics that we causing scenarios to be much harder than normal, and even caused some preventable character death due to not contributing in combat.
Several times I explained that if you don't do something bigger/better, several characters will die, and this usually pushed them to do something much more effective and/or not run away
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In your case, explaining that if their character doesn't participate, that the mission will fail for everyone might be enough to get them the message across. If they are still reluctant, perhaps ask them why the Society would send his character out on these missions if everyone comes back saying he doesn't actually help.
These are the tools you can use at the table as a player or GM if this is a reoccurring problem. If these fail, I agree that escalation to a VO would be the next step.