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So just a quick lore question, why did the Runelords all pursue such round-about and faulty methods to escape Earthfall, creating their various demiplanes tied to runewells with elaborate pre-requisite contingency to revive them? What was the purpose for wizards of the generally absurd level of power they possessed? Alaznist and Xanderghul were the only two who don't have access to the conjuration school, and thus "Create Greater Demiplane", so it makes a little bit more sense that they had to create some alternative means of escape. They rest of the Runelords should all have just permancy'd a Create Greater Demiplane and they would have accomplished the same result.
But why did they bother trying to hibernate in the first place? Why didn't they just go world/dimension hoping for a couple hundred years or so while they waited out the effects of Earthfall like most high-powered mages. Or like, teleport to the opposite side of the world and just survived as necessary after they saw the effects of Earthfall.
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Lore reason: Because they wanted a stronger solution achieved via artifact level magic or the like rather than just a plain old spell.
Real World Reason: Because that spell wasn't invented when we did Return of the Runelords and established the fact that they used runewells or the like to create their hideouts.
Lore Reason: They went hibernating (or opted for lich phylacteries or other elements) because they wanted to "fast forward" to a point where Earthfall was more in the past and not spend that time using up resources and risking death or setbacks like that.
Real World Reason: Because then we would have had to do a different plot, and the concept of "sleeping evils" is a fun one.
WOW, thanks for the fast reply James. Appreciate the input.
Was hoping for a bit of a discussion and theorizing by the community, but I guess I'll just slink back off to my corner of the interwebs now.
Oh don't let my comment stunt discussion, please. I just wanted to give some behind the scenes reasons why things went the way they did.
Would you say it's possible the spell "Create Greater Demiplane" simply did not exist before Earthfall? Absolutely people in modern Golarion have not rediscovered all the magic of that lost age, but I'm sure that people in the last 4000 years have come up with stuff that no one in Azlant or Thassilon happened to think of way back in their day.
Like I don't think they had gunpowder weapons back then, so something like "Bullet Shield" is a recent innovation probably.
If the people pushing the magical agenda already had a different solution that worked for them, they might not have seen the need for a "more accessible" solution to the same problem. Sort of a "Let them eat cake" sort of thing.
From my understanding of Azlant/Thessilon history, The Runelords were generally considered the most powerful wizards anywhere in the world during that era. Despite this only 4 of their number ascended to mythic rank. Sorshen (oh how my blood boils to think of it) decided to go the Trickster and thus loses out. Alaznist was only mythic tier 4. I don't think there is any canonical evidence of Zutha being an Archmage though we could assume he was (unless Paizo decided to make him a Marshal or something just to through us all off again, or a mythic lich like Tar-Baphon more likely).
Now I stated in my first post that it makes sense that Xanderghul could not create demiplane because he does not have access to the conjuration school, but as an Archmage 10 he certainly could have the Sanctum path ability and used that. It's possibly that Xanderghul alone possessed that path ability, and I would think as the Runelord of Pride it would warm his green little heart to flaunt such a powerful and easy escape method over the others who had to toil away on multiple bogus artifacts to try and escape in the absurdly identical method they all chose to try.
Now I'm not a regular on these forums so I don't know if every word that pours forth from James on these forums is canon or not, but the answer of "Lore reason: Because they wanted a stronger solution achieved via artifact level magic or the like rather than just a plain old spell." doesn't sit well with me because of Sloth. Create Lesser Demiplane is only 7th level and I think it would fit nicely with the general theme if Krune (Runelord of Sloth) had invented such a spell as the minimal amount of effort necessary to escape out by roughly the same means. Instead he goes through some elaborate process of separating his soul into a gem and then sending his gem into a dungeon somewhere while his body sleeps in a tomb and some token things are distributed to his minions to help him wake up. Likewise, when Belimarius's own attempt at a Runewell initially failed, she could have researched such a spell rather than trusting another Runelord to just giver her the secrets of creating an artifact, even for a mountain of gold.
I can only assume at this point that 5 Runelords attempted the same demiplane/runewell combo because they were more in competition with each other over who could do it better than because it was the optimal solution to the problem.
EDIT: Originally said 7, but I don't think Krune or Zutha actually made Runewell/Eyes.
That only leaves out Alaznist as not having a reasonably expedient method of escaping Earthfall if the Create Demiplane series of spells weren't in play. If they were on the otherhand, and she knew of them, she could have just Wished to recreate the spells. So having to design the Runewell of Wrath and the Eye of Fury make sense in her plot to an extent.
Certainly Create Demiplane was not available when Rise of the Runelords was first published, but it was by the Anniversary Edition and by the new release of Return of the Runelords. In my opinion the story Paizo wrote for both Rise and Return was immensely satisfying in a vacuum, but not in the greater history of the world.
Well, James Jacobs stated that his version of Xanderghul at least had the Sanctum mythic ability, so there's that.
It's also of note that player characters can choose a specific mythic path when ascending to mythic power, but NPCs may not have that choice and Sorshen in particular gets a number of path abilities that are very on theme for what the lore says she was like from the Trickster path.
Also, as for Zutha being mythic/non-mythic: I think I summed that up in this thread well enough.
Finally, regarding Create Demiplane, Belimarius and Krune have nothing from Ultimate Magic in their statblocks, Sorshen does have stuff from Ultimate Magic but she's also the one who created the theories behind runewells in the first place, so yeah.
Edit: The Sihedron Tome held by Belimarius states that it has the spells she prepared, plus all non-evocation, non-necromancy spells from the Core Rulebook, plus anything the GM decides she has. Ignoring the GM fiat part, this means Belimarius literally doesn't know the spell Create Demiplane or any of its variations.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Would you say it's possible the spell "Create Greater Demiplane" simply did not exist before Earthfall? Absolutely people in modern Golarion have not rediscovered all the magic of that lost age, but I'm sure that people in the last 4000 years have come up with stuff that no one in Azlant or Thassilon happened to think of way back in their day.
Like I don't think they had gunpowder weapons back then, so something like "Bullet Shield" is a recent innovation probably.
If the people pushing the magical agenda already had a different solution that worked for them, they might not have seen the need for a "more accessible" solution to the same problem. Sort of a "Let them eat cake" sort of thing.
Maybe.
I actually just read another thread from this AP while I was online and noted that James states he had a full power version of Xanderghul but not Zutha. Quick off OP question related to that since James is kindly responding to this post. 1) how in the world is Zutha only level 18/19 no mythic tiers and creating artifacts like the Gluttonous Tome and Cenotaph? 2) How could he possibly be the most powerful Necromancer pre Tar-Baphon and had given him the secret to Mythic lichdom, and have a mythic tower full of mythic undead but himself not be mythic? 3) BOOK3 STATS OUT ZUTHA AS NECROMANCER 13 but the runewalking ritual states its summons Zutha at 1/3 his power...13 is not 1/3 of 18.
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AshVandal wrote: I actually just read another thread from this AP while I was online and noted that James states he had a full power version of Xanderghul but not Zutha. Quick off OP question related to that since James is kindly responding to this post. 1) how in the world is Zutha only level 18/19 no mythic tiers and creating artifacts like the Gluttonous Tome and Cenotaph? 2) How could he possibly be the most powerful Necromancer pre Tar-Baphon and had given him the secret to Mythic lichdom, and have a mythic tower full of mythic undead but himself not be mythic? 3) BOOK3 STATS OUT ZUTHA AS NECROMANCER 13 but the runewalking ritual states its summons Zutha at 1/3 his power...13 is not 1/3 of 18. 1) The rules for creating artifacts are pretty much "The GM/writer gets to set the rules." They are created by NPCs or deities or world events or whatever, as the story requires. Zutha can create artifacts because he's a powerful NPC and gets to do things that PCs don't get to do.
2) He's not even close to the "most powerful Necromancer" before Tar-baphon. He's powerful, yes, but others are tough as well. And again, mythic is not something that an NPC or monster requries in order to be powerful. They don't have to follow PC rules.
3) He's at 1/3 of his power, but not 1/3 of his total levels. Those two things do not mean the same thing. The fact that the version of him in Book 3 doesn't have access to his rings or some other potent magical artifacts alone accounts for him being less powerful. If it makes more sense, consider the "1/3 his power" citation to be an error, and instead just read it as "less powerful than he was at his maximum power."
Umm...don't take this as being rude James, but page 6 of Mythic Realms "The Cenotaph" Overview and History Paragraph 2: " The Cenotaph's creator was none other than Zutha, the terrible Runelord of Gluttony, master of the Thessilonian realm of Gastash, and the greatest necromancer to grace Golarion's surface until Tar-Baphon himself".
I understand you make the rules but your answer "2) He's not even close to the "most powerful Necromancer" before Tar-baphon." doesn't satisfy my lore craving. Appreciate your response all the same but I don't accept that answer.
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AshVandal wrote: Umm...don't take this as being rude James, but page 6 of Mythic Realms "The Cenotaph" Overview and History Paragraph 2: " The Cenotaph's creator was none other than Zutha, the terrible Runelord of Gluttony, master of the Thessilonian realm of Gastash, and the greatest necromancer to grace Golarion's surface until Tar-Baphon himself".
I understand you make the rules but your answer "2) He's not even close to the "most powerful Necromancer" before Tar-baphon." doesn't satisfy my lore craving. Appreciate your response all the same but I don't accept that answer.
I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of our products, and I wasn't involved in the development of Mythic Realms. There's a few things in there that are hyperbolic and should have been caught but weren't. Had I been the developer of that book or had better oversight over it I would have adjusted that text to say "one of the greatest necromancers" rather than imply no one was more powerful than Zutha at the time.
If you don't accept that answer, then you're NOT going to get an answer you find acceptable, I fear, in which case you (or your GM) will need to make up an answer on your own.
And finally, if you are willing to admit that "I (AKA Paizo) am the one who makes the rules," you also need to accept the fact that "I (AKA Paizo)am the one to periodically make mistakes in print products as well. It feels unfair and frustrates me to the point of losing interest in taking part in discussions on the boards here if folks don't understand that, and accept that sometimes, my answers will be, "Oops, the book has an error, sorry."
So, to back up a little, I will try to modify my writing a bit to make you less upset as I understand that my speech/writing is often forward and blunt even though it's not intentionally provocative. I DO, actually appreciate the quick responses you've provided even if they're not satisfying to me personally. I appreciate the effort and fact that you're willing to engage.
I also don't really know who you are or your history with Paizo, so I don't really know what you do and don't know, what you did or did not approve of, or what license your job has to change past material or not. Likewise you may not have encyclopedic knowledge of your product line, nor do I have an encyclopedic knowledge of what has been erratad (or is desired to be erratad by current developers) or what is intended but not written in stone somewhere I have access to. I only know what I read, and even then Pathfinder is not my job, it's only a hobby that I like a lot, so I only really know material that interest me, where as you probably have to have a broader knowledge of everything. Ask me something about Numeria and I won't have the faintest clue. And while I wouldn't dare call myself some self-appointed expert on Thessilonian lore, I try to devour it when I can find it because I love it. So if I get a little frustrated with answers that don't match my current resources on the subject, it's only because I like the subject enough to care about it and its consistency.
I came by tonight because I had a few burning questions and dared to ask rather than try to read through endless posts to try and find an answer. Glad for the input. But I think I'll sign off now.
It's not very believable in a setting with Axis (and less safe planar marketplaces) that any wizard who is aware of and capable of interplanar travel can't obtain knowledge of an access to all but the most fringe and obscure of spells with just a modest amount of effort.
An infinite number of wizards writing in an infinite number of spell books in the infinite and eternal planar city will create comprehensive spell books and encyclopedias available for reasonable prices.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Would you say it's possible the spell "Create Greater Demiplane" simply did not exist before Earthfall? As a quick response to this question, page 18 of Arcane Anthology, Runes of Wealth, the spellbook "Runes of Wealth (Level 18 Transmuter)" counts among it's 9th level spells Create Greater Demiplane. The spellbook is supposedly attributed to Runelord Haphrama, who proceeded Karzoug as the Runelord of Greed. Granted, the entry leaves open for debate whether or not the tome is faithful copy of the original, let alone the actual spellbook possessed by the Runelord, but does not expressly eliminate the potential for the Create Demiplane series of spells to have at least been created during or before that era, if not in general circulation. This is irregardless of Xenocrat's point that multiverse wide spell circulation is a thing, as evidenced by all the original D&D greyhawk spells that are present in Pathfinder like Mord's Disjunction, Mansion, Sword, etc.
So I will just do what Jacob said and make up the answer for myself at my own table and argue my evidence to any GMs I play with. Again, to restate: Rise and Return are immensely satisfying stories in a vacuum and are what made me fall in love with Thassilonian lore to begin with, but there are some incongruities left open that I wish I knew more about. I'm sorry James for having offended you.
Also, as a side note: I would pay good money for the published statblock of all major characters in Golarion, regardless of whether or not I agreed with them or if they ended up officially retconing previously published materials. I am adaptable and a reasonable person, I just like statblocks and I like my lore congruent and officially published somewhere I have easy and organized access to.
Side-side note. Looking through other major necromancers of the world, the only other one that seems like he would hold a candle to Zutha would have been Geb, who does not have official statblocks but is officially listed as a Ghost Necromancer Wizard 20+. Like Zutha, he has a whole city listed in Mythic Realms, which provide mythic trials and is host to Arazni, a CR 26/MR8 creature that was created by and subservient to Geb himself. That speaks volumes about his candidacy as Zutha's chief rival to the claim of "most powerful necromancer before Tar-Baphon". If anyone cares, does anyone else know of any other necromancers in contention?
AshVandal wrote: Side-side note. Looking through other major necromancers of the world, the only other one that seems like he would hold a candle to Zutha would have been Geb, who does not have official statblocks but is officially listed as a Ghost Necromancer Wizard 20+. Like Zutha, he has a whole city listed in Mythic Realms, which provide mythic trials and is host to Arazni, a CR 26/MR8 creature that was created by and subservient to Geb himself. That speaks volumes about his candidacy as Zutha's chief rival to the claim of "most powerful necromancer before Tar-Baphon". If anyone cares, does anyone else know of any other necromancers in contention? Well, technically speaking, we have no idea exactly how strong any of the previous Runelords of Gluttony were, though while we can estimate Goparlis' and maybe Aethusa's levels, Atharend and Kaliphesta are more difficult since Atharend was killed by Xanderghul which allows for any level from 17-20 and just isn't helpful, but can allow for a level above Zutha's.
AshVandal wrote: Side-side note. Looking through other major necromancers of the world, the only other one that seems like he would hold a candle to Zutha would have been Geb, who does not have official statblocks but is officially listed as a Ghost Necromancer Wizard 20+ . Like Zutha, he has a whole city listed in Mythic Realms, which provide mythic trials and is host to Arazni, a CR 26/MR8 creature that was created by and subservient to Geb himself. That speaks volumes about his candidacy as Zutha's chief rival to the claim of "most powerful necromancer before Tar-Baphon". If anyone cares, does anyone else know of any other necromancers in contention? Shouldn't that be Sorcerer 20+? I thought the whole argument between Geb and Nex was Sorcerer vs Wizard ...
pad300 wrote: AshVandal wrote: Side-side note. Looking through other major necromancers of the world, the only other one that seems like he would hold a candle to Zutha would have been Geb, who does not have official statblocks but is officially listed as a Ghost Necromancer Wizard 20+ . Like Zutha, he has a whole city listed in Mythic Realms, which provide mythic trials and is host to Arazni, a CR 26/MR8 creature that was created by and subservient to Geb himself. That speaks volumes about his candidacy as Zutha's chief rival to the claim of "most powerful necromancer before Tar-Baphon". If anyone cares, does anyone else know of any other necromancers in contention? Shouldn't that be Sorcerer 20+? I thought the whole argument between Geb and Nex was Sorcerer vs Wizard ... No, you thought wrong.
Xenocrat wrote: No, you thought wrong. Interesting tidbit: Pathfinderwiki has listed 12 wizards of 20th level or higher, of whom 8 are higher. It has no sorcerers listed of 20th level or higher, and indeed has as its highest-level sorcerer Hakotep I, at level 18 (granted, he's also a mummy lord, worth +2 CR, but still).
The wizards at the pinnacle of level 20+ power are:
Alaznist (CE human evoker 20/archmage 4)
Arazni (NE lich wizard 20/marshal 8)
Geb (LE ghost necromancer 20+)
Jatembe* (NG human wizard 20/archmage 6)
Nex (N human wizard 20+)
Sorshen (CN human enchanter 20/trickster 10)
Tar-Baphon (NE mythic lich necromancer 20)
Xanderghul (LE human illusionist 20/archmage 10)
* only listed on the 20th-level and not the 20+ level page for some reason
Honestly, 'twould be nice if Pathfinder wiki had a page that sorted all NPCs by total character level, but hey, at least we can find most things easily enough...
Though others at 20+ include Baba Yaga, Savith, likely Aroden, and possibly Iomedae, Cayden Cailean, Nethys, Norgorber and Irori. The last 5 being from when they were mortals that is.
Edit: The other problem with the sorting being monsters with innate spellcasting and levels not being easily found as well
Dryad Knotwood wrote: Well, technically speaking, we have no idea exactly how strong any of the previous Runelords of Gluttony were, though while we can estimate Goparlis' and maybe Aethusa's levels, Atharend and Kaliphesta are more difficult since Atharend was killed by Xanderghul which allows for any level from 17-20 and just isn't helpful, but can allow for a level above Zutha's. Precisely why I was miffed to find out that Zutha is only level 18-19 with no mythic tiers. And thank you for linking out your thread again, I'd respond to it but I'm not quite sure what to say. It seems that all of the RLsofGlut were about the same level of power give or take. The timeline in book 1 lists only Xanderghul and Sorshen as achieving mythic status, so the rest of the RLsofGlut are best 20th level Necromancers. Personally, if Zutha wasn't "the greatest necromancer to grace Golarion's surface until Tar-Baphon himself", than I'd like to think he was at least the most powerful of all of the Runelords of Gluttony.
Jacob's point that raw level/mythic tiers isn't the only manifestation of power is salient. A 1st level aristocrat king/queen in charge of a huge empire could be powerful if armed with magic items of a 20th level PC, surrounded by multiple high-level loyal retainers, and had a creative vision to do something or many things on an epic scale. Still isn't quite so satisfying though, I think, as being personally powerful.
Having dug around little I came upon a 2011 thread where baron arem heshvaun quotes a post from James having listed the Runelords in descending order of power: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n9i7?Power-levels-of-the-various-Runelords . I did not find the original post but it's as good as anything else.
Also to be fair towards my own points, a Zutha who is a Necromancer 13 CR 14 is not 1/3 as powerful as anything the Pathfinder system can create by hard rules unless you'd want to argue that wizards grow exponentially more powerful (which I'm sure most people would) and thus a shadow-aspect of Zutha as a Necromancer 13 with shadow gear is about 1/3 as powerful as say Lich Necromancer 19 and PC level gear and multiple artifacts and an entire realm of riches and servants at his disposal. In this respect, the Zutha scenario may have been better suited to book 2 where a CR 7 Zutha could have been 1/3 the power level of a CR 21 Runelord as Dryad envisioned. (There are a lot of ways to make the story clean, but I like the whole 1/3 power in fitting with manifesting 1/3 of Zutha's essence from 1/3 of his phylactery). Of course the scenario works just fine as written in book 3 as well.
So if this is the case (and it seems all but set in stone) that Zutha is non-mythic and not even max-level, how in the world did he create the Cenotaph? And why does he not benefit from his/its/Negative Energy Plane's ability to grant mythic power to other creatures but not himself. I can understand the mechanical reason of " because PLOT!" but my lore-hunger is not sated if that's the best we got. Maybe we'll find out in Tyrant's Grasp!!!!
None of that really means anything though, none of the previous Runelord's of Gluttony are officially noted anywhere save for a name and years of rule. They aren't mentioned in any timeline at all, and to the best of my knowledge don't have any magic items, spells, or places attested to them. This could mean that other Runelords were successful in erasing their legacies from the world, but it could also mean that they were merely "typical" archwizards of no special note or extraordinary accomplishment.
So this thread is now officially WAAAAAAAY off topic. Sorry all.
pad300 wrote: Shouldn't that be Sorcerer 20+? I thought the whole argument between Geb and Nex was Sorcerer vs Wizard ...
Everywhere that I can find a statline for Geb (Pathfinder Wiki, Inner Sea Magic p6) lists Geb as a Necromancer 20+.
AshVandal wrote: Dryad Knotwood wrote: Well, technically speaking, we have no idea exactly how strong any of the previous Runelords of Gluttony were, though while we can estimate Goparlis' and maybe Aethusa's levels, Atharend and Kaliphesta are more difficult since Atharend was killed by Xanderghul which allows for any level from 17-20 and just isn't helpful, but can allow for a level above Zutha's. Also to be fair towards my own points, a Zutha who is a Necromancer 13 CR 14 is not 1/3 as powerful as anything the Pathfinder system can create by hard rules unless you'd want to argue that wizards grow exponentially more powerful (which I'm sure most people would) and thus a shadow-aspect of Zutha as a Necromancer 13 with shadow gear is about 1/3 as powerful as say Lich Necromancer 19 and PC level gear and multiple artifacts and an entire realm of riches and servants at his disposal. In this respect, the Zutha scenario may have been better suited to book 2 where a CR 7 Zutha could have been 1/3 the power level of a CR 21 Runelord as Dryad envisioned. (There are a lot of ways to make the story clean, but I like the whole 1/3 power in fitting with manifesting 1/3 of Zutha's essence from 1/3 of his phylactery). Of course the scenario works just fine as written in book 3 as well.
So if this is the case (and it seems all but set in stone) that Zutha is non-mythic and not even max-level, how in the world did he create the Cenotaph? And why does he not benefit from his/its/Negative Energy Plane's ability to grant mythic power to other creatures but not himself. I can understand the mechanical reason of " because PLOT!" but my lore-hunger is not sated if that's the best we got. Maybe we'll find out in Tyrant's Grasp!!!! Ah, the Cenotaph... I think the best explanation for that is Zutha's right-hand man, Ungarato. Ungarato was Barbarian 12/Fighter 7/Marshal 4, so Zutha may have had some help from Ungarato being nearby and fairly loyal towards him too.
As for CR... well supposedly (CR of given value) = 3 (CR of given value) - 3)'s, and since CR 14 = (CR 21 - 7), thus CR 21 = 12 (CR 14)'s. Or it should anyway, according to the CR equivalencies table in the Gamemastering section of the Core Rulebook, which would then mean Zutha's really weakened by his soul being in 3 pieces.
AshVandal wrote: Having dug around little I came upon a 2011 thread where baron arem heshvaun quotes a post from James having listed the Runelords in descending order of power: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n9i7?Power-levels-of-the-various-Runelords . I did not find the original post but it's as good as anything else. Turned it into a link.
AshVandal wrote: And thank you for linking out your thread again, I'd respond to it but I'm not quite sure what to say. Honestly, I'd like to know if anyone has anything I missed that can help narrow down any of the level ranges for any of the Runelords that I don't have anything on. Chances are though that most of them are just names mentioned solely in Secrets of Roderic's Cove, sadly.
Dryad Knotwood wrote: Ah, the Cenotaph... I think the best explanation for that is Zutha's right-hand man, Ungarato. Ungarato was Barbarian 12/Fighter 7/Marshal 4, so Zutha may have had some help from Ungarato being nearby and fairly loyal towards him too. Sorry, I don't follow this thought. How are you linking Ungarato and the Cenotaph. Neither is mentioned in the other's official story, nor is either mentioned in the story of the sword of gluttony's entry in A&L.
Also begs the question of why a mythic character would act as a cohort to a non-mythic character of the same character level. But I'd put this aside for now to explore a deeper explanation of how you think Ungarato had something to do with the Cenotaph's creation and mythic empowerment of everything but Zutha.
Dryad Knotwood wrote: Honestly, I'd like to know if anyone has anything I missed that can help narrow down any of the level ranges for any of the Runelords that I don't have anything on. Chances are though that most of them are just names mentioned solely in Secrets of Roderic's Cove, sadly. Other than my disbelief, not really. I think you did an excellent job of estimating stuff that only exists somewhere in the mind or lost chapbook of James. You wrote that Zutha was a CR 15 in the partial stat section when the official statblock lists him as CR 14, but that is an easy typo and doesn't effect your full-powered estimation.
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AshVandal wrote: Dryad Knotwood wrote: Ah, the Cenotaph... I think the best explanation for that is Zutha's right-hand man, Ungarato. Ungarato was Barbarian 12/Fighter 7/Marshal 4, so Zutha may have had some help from Ungarato being nearby and fairly loyal towards him too. Sorry, I don't follow this thought. How are you linking Ungarato and the Cenotaph. Neither is mentioned in the other's official story, nor is either mentioned in the story of the sword of gluttony's entry in A&L.
Also begs the question of why a mythic character would act as a cohort to a non-mythic character of the same character level. But I'd put this aside for now to explore a deeper explanation of how you think Ungarato had something to do with the Cenotaph's creation and mythic empowerment of everything but Zutha. So, this train of thought linking Ungarato and the Cenotaph requires following through on a number of things and takes maybe one or more leaps of logic:
1. Crafting magic items per the rules requires the creator to have the requisite item creation feat, a number of spells and abilities, and to make a Spellcraft check DC = 5 + caster level + 5 per requirement not filled. The only things that can't be skipped by increasing the Spellcraft DC are the item creation feat and the Spellcraft check.
2. Ungarato was himself mythic and helped to serve as a template for Zutha working towards making himself mythic... He just didn't manage to do so before Earthfall.
3. Ungarato didn't care whether Zutha was stronger than him and did canonically work as Zutha's right-hand man and supposedly was also best buds with Zutha.
But based on these we can guess that the Cenotaph was meant for Zutha to become mythic... he just didn't have the time for it to come to fruition. Also, the estimated DC for Zutha making the Cenotaph is likely DC 40, he most likely had all the necessary spells in his spellbook (Gluttonous Tome/Sihedron Tome, either works), but wasn't himself mythic.
Possible requirements for making the Cenotaph: Craft Wondrous Item, mythic power, Create Greater Undead, Ascension, Animate Dead. Ok, the DC may be 45 rather than 40 assuming Zutha didn't know the Ascension spell, but Zutha can still make that check (18 ranks in Spellcraft + 11 intelligence bonus + 3 class skill = +32 Spellcraft). Chances are that there's a few things that I can't think of as requirements for crafting the Zenotaph and it may include things like Fleshwarper as a result of Zutha's experiments with the Flesh Pits of Gastash, but the Cenotaph is possibly a result of Zutha possibly trying to become mythic like Ungarato, Sorshen and Xanderghul, but not managing to do so before Earthfall (in contrast, Alaznist succeeded in her endeavors to become mythic... one year before Earthfall).
Note that these are for the most part assumptions and may or may not be canonical, but it does help to paint the picture more easily for the way things may have worked. Plus, the Cenotaph is more of a story thing and PC's can't really make something like it unless the GM allows, but the magic item creation rules do help to give an idea on how it could be possible to do so. The DC for making something like the Cenotaph would also probably have a few ad hoc increases from the GM, but hey, this is an estimation based on incomplete data.
Edit: And based on this, the Cenotaph while not used for Zutha's ascension into mythic power, did get used by Tar-Baphon for his own purposes and his mythic ascension.
Dryad Knotwood wrote: So, this train of thought linking Ungarato and the Cenotaph requires following through on a number of things and takes maybe one or more leaps of logic:
1. Crafting magic items per the rules requires the creator to have the requisite item creation feat, a number of spells and abilities, and to make a Spellcraft check DC = 5 + caster level + 5 per requirement not filled. The only things that can't be skipped by increasing the Spellcraft DC are the item creation feat and the Spellcraft check.
2. Ungarato was himself mythic and helped to serve as a template for Zutha working towards making himself mythic... He just didn't manage to do so before Earthfall.
3. Ungarato didn't care that Zutha was stronger than him and did canonically work as Zutha's right-hand man and supposedly was also best buds with Zutha.
But based on these we can guess that the Cenotaph was meant for Zutha to become mythic... he just didn't have the time for it to come to fruition. Also, the estimated DC for Zutha making the Cenotaph is likely DC 40, he most likely had all the necessary spells in his spellbook (Gluttonous Tome/Sihedron Tome, either works), but wasn't himself mythic.
Possible requirements for making...
So, Ok I get what you're saying but I would shed some light on this theory from printed materials, though I see where you're trying to go with this.
On page 6 of Mythic Realms we get the majority of Cenotaph's story, I don't believe that it itself is some kind of magical item or even artifact. The Cenotaph is a spire that stretches from the ground to an unstated point in the sky, where the story states there is a naturally occurring gate/portal to the negative energy plane. This is what powers the Cenotaph as far as we can tell. The naturally occurring gateway infuses the tower providing fast healing 5 to undead and negative energy creatures within. Supposedly, this effect also has transformed the waiting armies of both Tar-Baphon and Zutha within into mythical creatures. So if nothing else I would have contended that Zutha may not have been mythic while he was an active Runelord, but should have at least picked up some mythic power in the 10,000 years he's been in there.
Tar-Baphon is also stated to have ascended to mythic power by some encounter within the Cenotaph. It is not stated whether this is due to the negative energy gateway, some encounter with Zutha, or something else. Only that he obtained power within the Cenotaph. In Tar-Baphon's entry on 63 of Mythic Realms, paragraph 2 states "that after unlocking the power of Zutha, Tar-Baphon gained power beyond that of mortals". On page 7 Claiming Mythic Power section states: "How Tar-Baphon first ascended to mythic power remains unknown, but he did so within the Cenotaph..." There is more to that section that is relevant but I don't want to type it all out. While it's possible that the power referred to was not Mythic power (there is some uncertainty whether or not Tar-Baphon was mythic before he arose as a mythic lich), I'd reason there is little else Tar-Baphon could have gained or learned from Zutha if he was only a non-mythic level 18 necromancer. Tar-Baphon does not practice Thessilonian sin magic or rune magic that we know about, and Zutha was not a conquering warlord like Tar-Baphon was. If Zutha himself was not a mythic lich, then he would unlikely be able to guide Tar-Baphon to mythic lichdom. Nor did Tar-Baphon become a lich prior to his battle with Aroden.
Finally, page 6 of mythic realms, Overview and History, paragraph 4 states "Beneath the Cenotaph Zutha's body lies, and his greatest source of power can be found there, amid a sprawling . . . " The Claiming Mythic Power section on page 7 states: "The process to obtaining mythic power at the Cenotaph can be undertaken in many ways, but the two most common are to venture into the Negative Energy Plane....and to reach the site of Zutha's resting corpse in the depths of dungeons below".
All this evidence says to me Zutha should be mythic, even if he was not originally intended to be so, and was intended to be one of the weaker Runelords, too much has been printed that instead shows him to be a massive powerhouse. I would think only Geb and Tar-Baphon are his rivals. It's also fine to assume that he didn't achieve mythic power while he was an active Runelord, but achieved mythic rank as a lich after he sealed himself away in Cenotaph for a few millennia. If I had to stat him on the spot based on my assumptions, I'd call him a Dread Lord Mythic Lich 6 Necromancer 18 or 19. I think the Dread Lord template from Horror Adventures suits what we know of Zutha well, as he wasn't a sterotypical necromancer warlord bent on destroying the world like Tar Baphon, but a glutton who just sat in his realm eating non-stop. His realm may have been superficially beautiful, but it probably had a hopelessly bleak oppression about it, which sits in nice contrast to Geb. While his realm wasn't necessarily a Castle Ravenloft style nightmare realm (nor is he a Cursed Lord), part of his power may stem from his unusual power over Gastash. Also the Runelords tend to be "outside of the box" type characters so this is also something a little different. I also think that if Zutha himself were a mythic lich, than it makes more sense that he might have been able to tutor Tar-Baphon into becoming one as well. I've seen mentioned, but I don't know about the Pure-Blood Azlanti thing, so my math goes like +2 (25PB and PC wealth), +2(lich template), +2(dread lord template), and mythic 6 (+2-3 depending upon how you score it), Final CR of 24-26 depending upon mythic rank and base necromancer level. I don't think this build hurts anything else done except upset the previously mentioned brain-list of Runelord power structure that's not been officially published. Having a CR 24-26 Zutha doesn't invalidate anything from Return of the Runelords.
Ok, that's long, so I'm not going to use the quote function, but either way:
According to the other things we know about Zutha, such as Shattered Star's Continuing the Campaign article, Zutha's body was in the Cenotaph yes, but his phylactery, the Gluttonous Tome, was not. In fact, the bloody thing was broken into pieces before Earthfall to prepare for Earthfall. It's also been stated in the article on the Cenotaph that you mention that it's his body, but it's as a corpse, not an undead. In fact, the Gluttonous Tome's entry in More Magic of Thassilon states that it's supposed to rebuild his body using that of the person being controlled by the thing. So, nope, Zutha himself has not actually been in the Cenotaph for 10000+ years.
Second, the next thing that becomes interesting is whether or not the Cenotaph had its current level of power at the time of Earthfall. 10,000 years is a long time and we've seen examples of things not working as intended such as Sorshen's clones being linked to other people on accident.
Third, just because you learn from someone how to do something doesn't mean that they need to have attained that state themselves. History, and mythology, are rife with examples of people being able to teach something that they understand without having it themselves.
Fourth, if you actually check their statblocks, none of the Runelords use any material outside of the core line other than the Inner Sea World Guide and the 3 Adventure Paths (Rise, Shattered Star, Return) having to do with their story (Edit: Ok, Krune uses stuff from Pathfinder Society Season 4, but that is where he was featured). I don't think Paizo would have used Dread Lich for Zutha, in fact he was called a unique lich, not a greater lich or dread lich or the like. ... Wait, just realized you said dread LORD, not dread LICH. Please ignore that misreading. Anyway, the Mythic Lich template doesn't actually allow for partial mythic ranks like that. Per RAW, Zutha would be forced into having 10 mythic ranks by the template since his base CR from 18-19 levels and being a lich would be CR 19-20, giving him CR 23-25 from levels and mythic ranks alone. The dread lord template would then push him into having CR 20-21, CR 25-26 with mythic. 25PB and PC wealth plus pure-blooded azlanti would then push that to CR 28-29, higher than Sorshen. Also, part of the reason why James Jacobs doesn't believe Zutha is a mythic lich is it doesn't work with mythic tiers from taking a mythic path. And even then math has been done on Zutha not being a mythic lich by other people as well.
Granted, most of those links are to comments from James Jacobs outside of the printed material, but hey, it works.
Edit: "Powerhouse" FYI, Zutha is one. See, anyone who can cast 9th level spells is absurdly powerful. Wish alone is bonkers and that can make someone a powerhouse. Zutha does not need to be a mythic being to be a powerhouse as he qualifies by virtue of being a full caster who achieved level 17+.
1), How do you link like that? How do I turn a free text sentence into a hyperlink on this forum? How do you link to the middle of a thread? I'm on mac if that matters I don't see any options to link either as a right-click command or as part of the forum options?
2) Thank you for that link, I feel way behind if that question was answered in 2014. Wish more of this info was collected somewhere easily accessible, like a wiki or printed materials. Did that particular Runelord thread ever get made like James suggested? I would love to go through and read all the back-thought that I seem to be behind on so I can stop upsetting people with my ignorance.
3*** I have to go to work so I will address further points when I get home. Save my space. I won't be home until 8pm EST. Thanks for the replies!
1. Text formatting is located under the typing area beneath community guidelines.
But for simplicity's sake:
(url=http://www.google.com)text here(/url)
Just replace the parentheses with brackets and...
Voila!
As for linking to the middle of a thread? I generally have to figure out the exact post's url which is a pain in and of itself, but once you know the url for the first or last post in the thread, you can figure out the url for other post's as well.
2. Dunno if that thread was ever made, but finding old threads can be a pain if you don't know what key words to use. Have you tried searching "Runelords"? Ya get like 20 quadrillion hits! Not really, but it feels like it.
AshVandal wrote: [
Also begs the question of why a mythic character would act as a cohort to a non-mythic character of the same character level.
1. Characters in universe are not necessarily aware of their game mechanics. Game mechanics are not the physics of the universe. They are an abstraction designed to allow players to tell a story. Nothing more. This is asking why a 20th level army general would ever serve a 5th level human aristocrat president. "Who is in charge" is very rarely if ever determined by "who would win in a fight to the death."
2. NPCs do not follow the same rules as PCs. Period. End of story. It doesn't matter how much certain segments of the player base may want them to. It just isn't feasible nor even desirable for the purposes of crafting and playing through entertaining stories. NPCs function on the power of plot. They exist for the sole purpose of facilitating the telling of an entertaining story featuring the PCs.
3. When game designers are creating products they do not have perfect knowledge of everything that has been published for the line, nor everything that will be published. For the most part only the broad strokes exist ahead of time. When something gets put into a book there is a very high chance that 1 year previous the author of that book didn't know the stuff they were putting in. They made it up as they wrote the book. It wasn't all part of some grand plan from the beginning. As a result of these facts game products are CHOCK FULL of inconsistencies. That is both perfectly ok, and absolutely normal. Expecting everything to make perfect sense or to follow a grand plan is highly unrealistic and will only lead to disappointment. Authors are human. Humans are inconsistent. Instead of trying to find secret patterns and hidden meanings where there are none, just accept it for what it is and enjoy the ride.
Edit:
4. These books are designed for YOU the player to use. If you in your game that you run think he should be mythic, just make him mythic. That's all you have to do. Simple as that. There is no need to convince everyone else that your view is the correct one. Everyone's view is equally valid. The only thing that matters for your game is what you want to be true.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
My quick head-canon reason on how non-mythic characters create artifacts: rituals. Especially for those like the runelords, who ruled nations and could call on multiple middle- to high-level casters to participate, rituals can provide a method for creating all sorts of effects.
I mean, if hag covens can turn changelings (humanoids) into hags (monstrous humanoids) as an instantaneous effect (can't be suppressed or dispelled), then rituals can already do things that spells can't.
Bartram wrote: AshVandal wrote: [
Also begs the question of why a mythic character would act as a cohort to a non-mythic character of the same character level.
1. Characters in universe are not necessarily aware of their game mechanics. Game mechanics are not the physics of the universe. They are an abstraction designed to allow players to tell a story. Nothing more. This is asking why a 20th level army general would ever serve a 5th level human aristocrat president. "Who is in charge" is very rarely if ever determined by "who would win in a fight to the death."
2. NPCs do not follow the same rules as PCs. Period. End of story. It doesn't matter how much certain segments of the player base may want them to. It just isn't feasible nor even desirable for the purposes of crafting and playing through entertaining stories. NPCs function on the power of plot. They exist for the sole purpose of facilitating the telling of an entertaining story featuring the PCs.
3. When game designers are creating products they do not have perfect knowledge of everything that has been published for the line, nor everything that will be published. For the most part only the broad strokes exist ahead of time. When something gets put into a book there is a very high chance that 1 year previous the author of that book didn't know the stuff they were putting in. They made it up as they wrote the book. It wasn't all part of some grand plan from the beginning. As a result of these facts game products are CHOCK FULL of inconsistencies. That is both perfectly ok, and absolutely normal. Expecting everything to make perfect sense or to follow a grand plan is highly unrealistic and will only lead to disappointment. Authors are human. Humans are inconsistent. Instead of trying to find secret patterns and hidden meanings where there are none, just accept it for what it is and enjoy the ride.
Edit:
4. These books are designed for YOU the player to use. If you in your game that you run think he should be mythic, just make him... 1: This is almost never true for Chaotic Evil characters, which both Zutha and Ungarato are. Power dynamics, while not the be all end all, are a primary driver of highly powerful chaotic evil characters. Obviously there can be exceptions, but those exceptions are not likely the rule, and shouldn't be assumed to be so.
2: Answered by your #4. I like my games to have consistent worlds. There is no reason for the rules to be different, and saying "Npc's can do this and you can't because PLOT!" is boring and contrived. Telling me unstated gods can make artifacts is cool. If you're telling me a 17th level mage can make artifacts because PLOT! Then in my Golarian PC's can make artifacts. I generally allow them to anyways, and my past DM's generally allow me to because I'm amiable to THE GRAND EPIC QUEST FOR LOOT that is necessary. "Sure you can make that artifact magic sword you've always dreamed of that can slice through a mountain, I have about 20 or so adventures planned out for you to assemble the materials and you might need to convince your buddy wizard and cleric to help enchant it, as well as 5 great wyrm metallic dragons, etc"
3: In fact, many companies that hold IPs can choose to approve works by authors to ensure consistency, and despite that they're rarely canon. It is not unreasonable for me to assume Paizo has done so. Also it's not like I'm citing random 3rd party stuff for my case, I'm citing official product pieces released by Paizo.
4: Thanks for your permission.
Dryad Knotwood wrote: Ok, that's long, so I'm not going to use the quote function, but either way:
According to the other things we know about Zutha, such as Shattered Star's Continuing the Campaign article, Zutha's body...
Second, the next thing that becomes interesting is whether or not the [url=https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=849?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#42407]Cenotaph had its ...
Third, just because you learn from someone how to do something doesn't mean that they need to have attained that state themselves. History, and mythology, are rife with examples of people being able to teach something that they understand without having it themselves.
Fourth, if you actually check their statblocks, none of the Runelords use any material outside of the core line other than the Inner Sea World Guide and the 3 Adventure Paths (Rise, Shattered Star, Return) having to do with their story (Edit: Ok, Krune uses stuff from Pathfinder Society Season 4, but that is where he was featured). I don't think Paizo would have used Dread Lich for Zutha, in fact he was called a unique lich, not a greater lich or dread lich or the like. ... Wait, just realized you said dread LORD, not dread LICH. Please ignore that misreading. Anyway, the Mythic Lich template doesn't actually allow for partial...
Edit: "Powerhouse" FYI, Zutha is one. See, anyone who can cast 9th level spells is absurdly powerful. Wish alone is bonkers and that can make someone a powerhouse. Zutha does not need to be a mythic being to be a powerhouse as he qualifies by virtue of being a full caster who achieved level 17+.
I cut some of the quotes for brevity of reference, I did not alter your words which are reproduced above.
Your first and second points are salient, I have no useful response at this time. Thank you for the input.
Your third point I would disagree with. Could you give me an example? I am neither a doctor, nor a plumber, nor an expert mixed martial artist, would you want to learn either of these three things from me? In my personal real-life experience, you can only teach what you know, and a surprising number of people are masters at a craft and are unable to teach it to other people. I would think that Tar-Baphon would not trust some feeble non-mythic lich to teach him how to become a mythic lich, or at least when the requirement of "Get yourself smote by a god, trust me, it was on my 'to-do' list" pops up, most creatures of an intelligence of Tar-Baphon's calibre might respond with "you first". But hey, I guess "He who dares, wins" is an apt motto in this case.
Four) is a multipart point, so I will try to address: Why this instance UM is not a thing? Runelord Sorshen has Overwhelming Presence on her spell-list; Ultimate Magic. Runelord Angothane has spells from UM on his statblock, and he was previous to most Runelords. Zinlun has UM spells on his statblock. So you can't just write off UM as not a thing. There is no reason to assume Zutha wouldn't have memorized some UM spells if he had his full allotment of 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. You can't just assume that spells from UM are newfangled post Earthfall discoveries.
No, I don't think Paizo would have used Dread Lich or Dread Lord if they were to stat Zutha up. I spent a little free time and my lunch break at work trying to catch up on 6 fricken years of FAQ on the forums and from what I gather Zutha was just a vanilla necromancer. Nothing really special about him. Half of the undead in Gallowspire's dungeons past level 5 are individually more powerful than Zutha in terms of raw magical power. I'd like to think that Zutha was special in some way, unique from all the other 17+ plus level liches running around like cockroaches in Gallowspire.
Per RAW, from page 176 of Mythic Adventures: subheading Mythic Rank, paragraph 3: "It is possible for a low CR creature to have a high mythic rank, or for a high CR creature to have a low mythic rank" While Paizo typically builds vanilla mythic monsters according to the rule of MR=0.5(CR), it does not have to be universal, it's just a rule of thumb they build vanilla creatures with. While I see where you might interpret from the Creating a Mythic Lich template why Zutha must be MR 9, this doesn't have to be the case, even though it SHOULD hold true. Seriously, how many MR 10 liches are there running around Golarian? Geb's NOT a mythic lich, he's potentially a mythic ghost and really he just should be an Archmage, so I don't see a problem with Zutha being MR9 or MR 1, whatever your campaign wants. Maybe what made Zutha special is he was the first mythic lich, as he didn't achieve the height TB did because he didn't entirely know what he was doing on the road to power? Also, why does James care that mythic lich doesn't stack with Archmage, when Zutha is neither? That's a dumb point. I don't know, but it's a moot point anyways since he's just a vanilla wizard vanilla lich 17 MR 0.
Also, Tar-Baphon's power set is completely unique from MR 10 liches. What was the point of them spelling out exactly what a MR10 lich is and then completely doing something else with the character. How many MR10 liches are there anyways?
Your Edit) Ya, I kinda see your point, but it doesn't feel satisfying to me. Like I said and has also been pointed out by others, half the liches locked down in Gallowspire are level 17+.
There's a lot of people who run around teaching, quite badly I might add, but they're still teaching. There are others who teach, but can't prove things yet because they don't have the right technology. The third point more gets into the possibility of Zutha not being able to become a mythic lich by being smote by a god, but Tar-Baphon could. Mythic ascension is different for each individual after all.
Edit: Bad comparison but: Zutha is to Tar-Baphon as Einstein is to Marie Curie. The former created a theory, but couldn't prove it. The latter took the theory and proved it with tools that the former didn't have.
To note, Ultimate Magic is core line, at least most of the spells and classes in my opinion. I specified core line rather than Core Rulebook for the reason you brought up, plus Horror Adventures and Advanced Player's Guide were used in statblocks though only spells (such as Wither Limb for Zutha) and thematic feats (such as Fleshwarper for Alaznist).
Also, the per RAW line you quoted? It doesn't really work if you want to use just RAW. Much like rule 0 is difficult when doing a RAW discussion. Rule 0 is useful, but at the same time throws discussions of track. Honestly that part of RAW looks to more apply if not using a template as templates have straight rules on how to use them.
Actually, in regards to how many MR 10 liches there are running around on Golarion... the better question is how many liches with mythic tiers/ranks? Only two named ones: Tar-Baphon and Arazni. The influence of mythic power is not that much so to speak. As it is, being a unique lich as Zutha has been stated to be would be its own template that probably wouldn't add to CR, while trading out something from the normal lich template.
In regards to Tar-Baphon having a unique set of abilities... that would probably be because of him being in a different book than the mythic lich template which is a "generic"* template for GMs that don't have the time to homebrew something equally powerful.
*as generic as Mythic power can be
Quick interjection, I thought that in order to become a mythic lich, Tar-Baphon needed to be killed by a god. I always thought his journey to the Cenotaph wasn't learning from Zutha so much as desecrating Zutha's remains to gain power.
That's true, but more than one person has used Tar-Baphon learning from Zutha as a reason for Zutha being mythic. And so refuting that is required when explaining why it is unnecessary for Zutha to be mythic in order to be a powerful wizard. There's also the fact that learning need not always be done face-to-face and could be done by Tar-Baphon reading Zutha's notes and taking things a step or two further.
I love create greater demi-plane and mages sanctuary but the space is limited. Really limited, you can't even get a decent manor + grounds without a huge amount of spellcasting much less a self sustaining (magic plant bounty aside) village or kingdom sized plane. For someone like me it'd be fine spellbooks, research equipment and comfort (enough castings for a small garden and house plus the bounty for food). For a poweful ruler of a land who wants that? Trapped in that confined space, alone for years maybe even centuries waiting for the world to recover from Starfall and your enemies to move on? It'd probably be hell compounded with the knowledge your rivals are out there plotting and looking for a way to get to you as apparently happened to Xanderghoul.
On the other hand sleeping the centuries away with a mystical alarm clock to wake you when the time is right to return and reclaim your lands? Quick, quiet and no real signs to your rivals of where you are especially if you have back up plans like a certain rulers clone bodies scattered around the world in case your attacked in your slumber. Much more manageable.
Though I admit a part of me wonders how someone falling prey to a previous AP's body swapping trap would react to a returned rune lord trying to recruit them to their side believing they are the original.
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