Hangover Cleric Build Advice


Advice

Dark Archive

Hi Guys,

I recently found out about the hangover cleric concept and I was wondering what your take on this build is. The concept is that it will use the rulership variant channel via the Horus/Ra portfolios for the hangover bit. More than that, the level 1 light domain ability is a slightly smaller 20ft radius debuff to blind or apply dazzled (-1 attack) for rounds at a time. As such, I've built this guy to run around with decent DCs in both (as applicable to the entities) and in his non combat control rounds buff or further debuff targets with his spells. I just wanted to get your feedback on whether the light domain is worth it.

The alternative would it be to go evangelist archetype, human (for flagbearer/lingering performance at L1), drop WIS down to a 14 or 16 so I could buff my STR/DEX to avoid needing muleback chords. In that case Dispaster would also give the trickery/deception domains and would be better than Ra/Horus or getting into 30ft of baddies. I could also grab an ancient banner at L9 and really buff my flagbearer/performance abilities.

Cleric (Shoanti Shaman) X

Race
1 - Half-Elf

Alternate Racial Traits:
1 - Kindred Raised (+2 CHA and +2 WIS)

Traits
1 - Sacred Conduit (+1 Channel DC)
2 - Seeker (+1 perception and it is a class skill)

Diety
Ra or Horus

Stats (Level 1)
STR - 7
DEX - 12
CON - 12
INT - 10
WIS - 18 (+2 racial)
CHA - 18 (+2 racial)

Stats (Level 11)
STR - 7
DEX - 14 (+2 Belt)
CON - 14 (+2 Belt)
INT - 12 (+2 Headband)
WIS - 22 (+2 racial +2 Headband)
CHA - 20 (+2 racial +2 Headband))

Feats
1 - Selective Channeling
3 - Flagbearer
5 - Improved Channeling
7 - Extra Channel
9 - Quickened Channel
11 - ?

Domains
Light - The first level domain ability gives me another 20ft area of affect control spell to cause blindness off of fort (good for casters).
Protection (through archetype Quah Spire Clan - allows me to dump strength and buy muleback cords to adjust since the domain gives me a scaling resistance bonus).


Don't bother with muleback cords. Ant Haul is a cleric spell and last 2 hours per level.

The light domain ability is strong but you have no way to exclude alllies from the effect which means you need to be 20' away from your allies while still being within 20' of the enemy.

Silver Crusade

I've played and GMd numerous hangover clerics. It's a very powerful build with several 'gotchas' for both players and GM.

Various suggestions for the Original Poster:

* Rulership Hangover Cleric build is extremely powerful. I strongly suggest running it past your GM before playing this build. Maybe even do a sample combat or two with your GM, so your GM understands just how powerful it is.

* Here's an extreme hyper-optimized hangover cleric build. Please don't bring this to your table without a very good reason, warn people before you do, and give both GM and other players veto power over such a powerfully dominant character.

* Only run this sort of build in a party with other optimized PCs. If your party includes non-optimized Tier III and Tier IV characters, like Rogues (and especially Rouges) and fighters, maybe don't play a top-Tier I hangover cleric who can do everything better. Discuss with other players.

* A reasonable and thoughtful GM might choose to ban the Rulership Hangover build. I would not, but I would probably increase encounter difficulty to compensate.

* The Cleric(Evangelist) archetype modifies Channeling. Evangelist archetype and Variant Channel archetype are mutually exclusive.

Variant Channeling wrote:
A variant channeling either modifies positive channeled energy when used to heal or modifies negative energy when used to harm.

* Horus is a Lawful Neutral deity. A Lawful Neutral cleric of a Lawful Neutral deity may select Versatile Channeling. This lets your Hangover Cleric Variant Channel negative energy to harm, and also normally channel positive energy to heal. Your party will love you if you do this.

* Quick channel is great but burns your channels swiftly. One effective way for the GM to compensate for a Hangover Cleric is to encourage the Cleric to use them all up, then have another encounter ...

* Domain Choice depends upon what else you want your hangover cleric to do. For example, Hangover Cleric and Reach Cleric work well together, although build points are stretched thin. The former does stuff during the PC's turn while the latter does stuff during the GM's turn. A melee-competent reach cleric might want the Plant(Growth) domain over anything else, all clerics want the excellent Travel domain, while a support cleric might especially want the Luck domain. Horus gets the excellent Animal (Feather) domain, which gives you a full animal companion for just one feat. Light Domain is 'meh' compared to any of the above.

* The Cleric(Seperatist) archetype is compatible with the Cleric(Variant Channeling) archetype. So you must choose one domain from your deity, but the other domain can be anything you want.

* Consider specializing less. Dazing channel is so powerful that it's OK if your DC is 1 or 2 points lower. Why do you need an 18 Wisdom, when a 14 will do just fine? After all, you'll hardly ever cast Cleric spells that require a saving throw, so you don't really care about your casting DC.

* Dumping Strength to 7 might be a bad idea. Foes who make their save vs your Daze will tend to come at you. If you have decent Strength (14 is a sweet spot) and wield a longspear you will get a free trip attempt, during the GM's turn, against the first foe who tries to approach you. It won't work vs bosses but will work well against mooks. Personally I'd consider this reach screen more useful than high WIS. Plus, starting with just a 14 STR, you can buff yourself into Clericzilla when you must and your melee damage will will be like a frontliner. You could have basic martial competence and still be just as good at channeling.

* Flagbearer is a terrific feat, and you can conveniently attach the flag to your longspear. The +1 morale bonus to your AoO trips has more defensive value than a shield. Combines well with bardsong.

* Try to get Quick Channel at 5th level. You won't regret it.

* I've personally reached the conclusion that Dazing Hangover is usually too powerful for game balance. Variant Channel (Earth) is a much less powerful variant channel that can still provide a huge tactical advantage, especially if the cleric passes out Potions of Featherstep before making the entire battlefield difficult terrain.


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Magda- You are admirably considerate of GMs and other players.

When I come up with a powerful build idea I just want to use it. Then realise what I have done later and grow repentant.


What are y'alls thoughts on a hangover cleric that goes the Shattered Resolve/Disease Variant Channeling? Easily less powerful than the Daze, but considering how powerful that is, this might be a table-friendly-while-still-effective compromise. You are locked into Urgathoa as your deity though (which may or may not be an option).

Dark Archive

Magda Luckbender wrote:

I've played and GMd numerous hangover clerics. It's a very powerful build with several 'gotchas' for both players and GM.

** spoiler omitted **...

Thank you for the suggestions. I'm annoyed that the evangelist/variant channeling will likely lead to table variation. I would have assumed that they are able to stack because one is not an archetype (thus there shouldn't be any issue), but even if I believe that, there will be others who will rule the way you have identified it.

To answer some of your questions, the WIS is high to get the DC on the light domain area of effect high since it keys of WIS. As well, the Shoanti Shaman archetype allows a domain swap from your normal deities portfolio based on the clan portfolio and herolab is identifying the following:

Moon Clan - Animal, Darkness, Strength, Weather, War
Axe Clan - Animal Destruction, Strength Water, Weather
Hawk Clan - Air, Animal, Liberation, Strength, Weather
Spire Clan - Animal, Knowledge, Protection, Rune, Weather
Sun Clan - Animal, Fire, Strength, War, Weather
Skull Clan - Animal, Darkness, Earth, Protection, Repose
Wind Clan - Animal, Air, Earth, Protection, War

So the choice picks there are:
- animal (also an AC - will that stack with feather?),
- Liberation (always good),
- fire (for some evocation - meaningless if you are dropping WIS)
- Protection (save some WBL and lets me dump STR either for the ant haul or the muleback cords)

Either way, if I'm fine with one of those domains, the shoanti shaman archetype is strictly better because I don't lose two effective cleric levels for one domain.

As for quick channel by L5, doesn't that seem a bit rushed? With a 14 WIS, all of my spells will need to be buffs for others, so I won't get the same gain from burning my channels at twice the pace. It also means I have to give up 5 Skill points of 15 to get it as early as possible. It feels better to delay, so the PC can be a competent face up until L5 (Diplo + perception). If you want to be a melee build then you have to dump INT, if you want to have a more fun out of combat character then you need to dump STR. Going with an AC via the domain, eats up a feat, but it also eats up half my WBL, which I could have spent on fun items, improving face skills, or bringing my saves back in line with expectations. I've had lunar oracles with ACs, and I spent almost all of my PC's dedicated time to keeping the OP tiger alive (fun, but the ACs are glass cannons that are often more deadly than other PCs - at least until you hit alignment DR from outsiders at ~L10.

I'm going to be honest, a 14 STR trip attempt from a 3/4 BAB class with no focus on tripping is going to mostly fail/flail. Tripping also gets to be nearly impossible past L9 and a spear isn't a trip weapon (if you fail too badly then you throw that spear on the ground). I'd be more inclined to throw the seeker trait for one of the metamagic reducing traits, and pick up toppling metamagic (spiritual weapon + toppling).

You also give up a pretty big chunk of AC when you go two handed, which will be an issue with the build (either become immobile in heavy armor with a wasted feat, or choose between +1 hp/level or +1 AC. The heavy shield is easily a +4-5 on your AC. The only benefit of a 14 STR is you aren't completely SOL on grapple attempts/escapes.

I think you'd be better doing the build I have below if you were more serious about utilizing the reach/longspear.

Dark Archive

Here is a reach cleric versions with double dumped INT (hurts me to do, but also makes quickened channel VERY painful to acquire).

This build could also easily take a L1 dip into Cavalier (First Mother's Fang/Knight of Arnisant) at L1 or L3. That would give you free exotic weapon proficiency for a fauchard (1d10, 18-20/x2) vs. longspear (1d8,x3), shield focus so you can grab shield brace and get your AC back up (so your L1 or L3 feat would be shield brace, and phalanx formation a little later). It gives you combat expertise (since fauchard is a tripping weapon you could actually go for a trip build if desired). You lose 1 CL, 1 DC on the channel every other level, but otherwise you have a little more 'pop' with your melee and a 16 STR can easily hit a 18 STR with a belt, meaning you can get the +2/+2/+2 physical belt to get dex/con bak up as well.

Cleric (Shoanti Shaman) X

Race
1 - Nagaji

Traits
1 - Sacred Conduit (+1 Channel DC)
2 - Seeker (+1 perception and it is a class skill)

Diety
Dispater

Stats (Level 1)
STR - 16 (14 + 2 Racial)
DEX - 14
CON - 12
INT - 5 (7 - 2 racial)
WIS - 14
CHA - 17 (15 + 2 racial)

Stats (Level 11)
STR - 18 (14 + 2 Racial + 2 Belt)
DEX - 16 (14 + 2 Belt)
CON - 14 (12 + 2 Belt)
INT - 5 (7 - 2 racial)
WIS - 16 (14 + 2 Ioun Stone)
CHA - 21 (15 + 2 racial + 2 Level + 2 Headband)

Feats
1 - Selective Channeling
3 - Improved Channeling or Phalanx Formation
5 - Improved Channeling or Phalanx Formation
7 - Extra Channel
9 - Quickened Channel
11 - Combat Reflexes or Alignment Channel

Domains
Deception (for mirror image and the shift ability lets me reposition myself around the battlefield to make use of the reach)
Freedom (get out of grapples, remove conditions, etc.)

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