An example deity in this situation is Vildeis. This deity has access to the following:
Domains Destruction, Good, Healing, Law
Subdomains Archon (Good), Archon (Law), Martyr, Rage, Resurrection
So, the rule on subdomains states:
A cleric who chooses a subdomain must have access to both the domain and its subdomain from her deity.
The Martyr subdomain is under the Nobility domain. Vildeis has Martyr, but not Nobility.
1) So, this means that a cleric of Vildeis cannot choose the Martyr subdomain because Vildeis does not also grant access to the Nobility domain. Correct?
2) Are they any classes that get access to a subdomain granted by their deity when their deity does not have the associated domain?
Thanks all.
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1) This is correct; a Cleric of Vildeis cannot take the Martyr subdomain for this reason.
2) No, I'm not aware of any that work this way.
This is probably an oversight, as a deity with a subdomain but not its corresponding domain makes no sense.
There are a number of deities and such that grant subdomains without the base domain. It's rare, but far too common to be an oversight.
Kostchtchie grants Ice without Water.
Trelmarixian grants Decay without Plant.
Tawil At'Umr grants Night without Darkness.
Ish-Aun-Vuln grants Venom without Scalykind.
I'm sure there are more that I can't think of at the moment.
So yes, you can take the subdomain, but you can't trade it out for the base domain.
This is probably an oversight, as a deity with a subdomain but not its corresponding domain makes no sense.
That's what I was thinking, but, as Sandal Fury points out above, it's not a lone oversight. It makes me wonder if there's a scenario or rule from somewhere else that applies to make it allowable.
Given it's the God of self sacrifice, I would allow the domain ONLY if it was the subdomain version, then just move on with game.
That's what I was planning on asking my GM to allow, but I didn't want to go to him asking for an exception if I was incorrectly interpreting the rules.
This is probably an oversight, as a deity with a subdomain but not its corresponding domain makes no sense.That's what I was thinking, but, as Sandal Fury points out above, it's not a lone oversight. It makes me wonder if there's a scenario or rule from somewhere else that applies to make it allowable.
For example, researching further, I just found this.
Subdomains can be selected by Druids (except the metal subdomain) and inquisitors (if their deity allows it).
There's nothing in the rule quoted in my first post that says that inquisitors and druids need to have access to a subdomains' parent domain, so I guess that answers my question #2.
I should note that Kostchtchie's write-up says "although the Ice subdomain is normally not available without the Water domain, an exception is made in this case because of the demon lord’s close association with cold."
So that was definitely intentional. To my knowledge he was the first printed instance of this, and I imagine it's meant to be the general rule going forward.
I should note that Kostchtchie's write-up says "although the Ice subdomain is normally not available without the Water domain, an exception is made in this case because of the demon lord’s close association with cold."
So that was definitely intentional. To my knowledge he was the first printed instance of this, and I imagine it's meant to be the general rule going forward.
Yeah, I imagine it's a case of rules creep. For example, domains were created, then subdomains, then deities with rogue subdomains... and nobody has gone back and visited the original rule about clerics when subdomains were created.
A cleric who chooses a subdomain must have access to both the domain and its subdomain from her deity.
That's some seriously unfortunate wording. I suspect it was meant to say that your deity must have access to the subdomain and not just the domain.
I could have sworn that at some point Paizo answered the question of deities with rogue subdomains, but I can't... actually find that FAQ right now, so I might be misremembering that such a thing exists.
I believe the intention is that clerics would be able to take the listed subdomain, but cannot take the domain from which it originates. So you could have a Cleric of Vildeis with the Martyr subdomain, but not with the Nobility domain.
I believe the intention is that clerics would be able to take the listed subdomain, but cannot take the domain from which it originates. So you could have a Cleric of Vildeis with the Martyr subdomain, but not with the Nobility domain.
That's actually in the rules in the page I linked in the first post. If any class take a subdomain, they take it in place of the parent domain. The issue lies with the fact that the rules state clerics have to have the parent domain as a prerequisite for selecting the subdomain, but this clause doesn't seem to apply to other classes. Is that intended, or was it in fact cleared up somewhere else?
I believe the intention is that clerics would be able to take the listed subdomain, but cannot take the domain from which it originates. So you could have a Cleric of Vildeis with the Martyr subdomain, but not with the Nobility domain.That's actually in the rules in the page I linked in the first post. If any class take a subdomain, they take it in place of the parent domain. The issue lies with the fact that the rules state clerics have to have the parent domain as a prerequisite for selecting the subdomain, but this clause doesn't seem to apply to other classes. Is that intended, or was it in fact cleared up somewhere else?
Allow me to clarify what I said: Vildeis has the subdomain, so you can take the subdomain, even if you cannot take the parent domain beause Vildeis lacks the parent domain. As was mentioned upthread, this is likely a combination of rules creep and Paizo changing their mind on forcing deities to have a parent domain before they can offer a subdomain due to how much that limits deities, then never revising their earlier wording.
Kostchtchie's wording of his access to the Ice domain suggests that in cases of a deity possessing a subdomain when they do not possess the parent domain, the possession of the subdomain takes precedence over the lack of parent domain in determining whether or not a cleric can take the subdomain.
RAI is clearly that the cleric can, even if the RAW is fuzzy and poorly-clarified.
Thanks for your help, all.
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An example deity in this situation is Vildeis. This deity has access to the following:
Domains Destruction, Good, Healing, Law
Subdomains Archon (Good), Archon (Law), Martyr, Rage, ResurrectionSo, the rule on subdomains states:
A cleric who chooses a subdomain must have access to both the domain and its subdomain from her deity.The Martyr subdomain is under the Nobility domain. Vildeis has Martyr, but not Nobility.
1) So, this means that a cleric of Vildeis cannot choose the Martyr subdomain because Vildeis does not also grant access to the Nobility domain. Correct?
2) Are they any classes that get access to a subdomain granted by their deity when their deity does not have the associated domain?
Thanks all.
There are a few deities that grant a Subdomain, because it's perfect for them, despite not granting the parent Domain.
The notion was introduced in this Blog post by James.
And LadyGrayRose would be correct, that a Cleric of Vildeis can take the Martyr subdomain, but does not gain access to the Nobility domain as well.
Good find, Set.
*Although this subdomain would normally not be available to worshipers of this deity, in this case an exception is made due to the deity's close association with this theme.