I am certain I came across this exact issue somewhere, but I have been unable to find it. If you build an Oracle with the Lore mystery who takes Sidestep Secret they replace DEX to AC and reflex with CHA. If they then take 2 levels of Paladin they get an untyped bonus equal to CHA to saves. Do they stack in this case? So a 3rd level character with a +5 to charisma would end up with a +10 Reflex.
I am well aware of James Jacobs remarks on ability scores not stacking in the case of CMB and attacks due to feats like Fury's Fall, but that's an issue of a feat directly stacking in the same "slot".
Usually untyped bonuses stack but in the specific case of ability score modifiers they don't. FAQratta.
According to that they would then, right?
"Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity."
"...For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions."
This is an actual replacement not an addition like the Scaled Fist Monk's AC bonus would be.
No - that FAQ doesn't call out replacement as being any different. Adding Cha twice in most circumstances is what it's in place to block.
I finally found the original forum argument I found this under; they all came to the same conclusion via the FAQ, but the argument seems to hinge on Dex being a bonus to Reflex Saves. However, I can't find where adding your Dex/Con/Wis to saves is listed as a bonus.
From the SRD "Like an attack roll, a saving throw is a d20 roll plus a bonus based on your class and level (see Chapter 3), and an associated ability score." Here the bonus is specifically called out as being from your class and level; the ability score is simply part of the saving throw.
From each individual save. "Add your [Ability] modifier to your [Save] saving throw." The FAQ gives the format ""bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions." which does not seem to apply to the innate modifier on Saving Throws.
I realize I am not going to change the accepted stance on this issue, but I believe the way the FAQ is worded means it applies to stacking multiple bonuses on top of the initial modifier and not a single bonus.
If you realize you're not going to change the accepted stance, I'm not sure what the point of this post is, then? The intent of the FAQ and dev posts on the subject is clear, that they never intended for people to be able to double stack stats for things. They also don't drop in and clarify random forum posts anymore, not for years, since people jumped down their throats when they didnt like the answers.
So what do you hope to get out of this?
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I finally found the original forum argument I found this under; they all came to the same conclusion via the FAQ, but the argument seems to hinge on Dex being a bonus to Reflex Saves. However, I can't find where adding your Dex/Con/Wis to saves is listed as a bonus.
From the SRD "Like an attack roll, a saving throw is a d20 roll plus a bonus based on your class and level (see Chapter 3), and an associated ability score." Here the bonus is specifically called out as being from your class and level; the ability score is simply part of the saving throw.
From each individual save. "Add your [Ability] modifier to your [Save] saving throw." The FAQ gives the format ""bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions." which does not seem to apply to the innate modifier on Saving Throws.
I realize I am not going to change the accepted stance on this issue, but I believe the way the FAQ is worded means it applies to stacking multiple bonuses on top of the initial modifier and not a single bonus.
Rule of Thumb: If you think you've found a clever loophole, you are almost certainly doing something wrong...
Applying the same stat bonus multiple times was found to be a serious problem, so they errata'd it. The only real 'loophole' remaining that I am aware of is Bestow Grace, which specifically grants a 'Sacred' bonus (a very useful potion to have on an semi-mythic Oracle with Charisma 40+).
My original point was to find the rule that covered this as I could not locate it at the time. My second response was pointing out that the FAQ that was provided was not actually referencing my issue, but was discussing stacking additional bonuses per the structure provided. The third response was simply closing up the thread and clarifying my confusion over the issue.