I’m looking for some input/feedback on a party of six that’s about to come together. A lot about the characters have already been decided. Races are not up for debate for one. One glaring problem with the current lineup is that there might be too much of a melee-focus and not enough caster-bases covered (especially on the arcane side). I guess what I’m asking for is this: What choices could we make in order to cover the most bases and still keep with the general theme?
I’m presenting the party with the general idea attached, with some brief notes under as to what the current development is.
Human: Sword & Board-build. Bull-rushes and rages.
- Might go for the viking archetype. Might multiclass with Barbarian. Might perhaps go superstitious barbarian with fighter lvls in order to cover Sword & Board Feats. Initially planned as a full martial class.
Half-Orc: 2 hand martial with orc falchion. Possibly battle Cleric?
- Both Gorum and Sarenrae are flavourful deities for the character. Maybe use separatist to mix domains. Not sure which would be the best combo. Might go for Glory domain as it’s available to both Sarenrae and Gorum.
Half-Orc: Inquisitor of Sarenrae. Archer?
- Someone more sneaky. Perhaps Ranger would be a better, less feat intensive choice. Divine spells are a plus. Is the twin sister of the above-mentioned half-orc.
Human: Alchemist or Empiricist Investigator
- A skill monkey. Sort of a tinkering character. Wants to be utility focused.
Aasimar (Agathion-kin – Con/Cha): Straight up Oradin.
This one is pretty much set as the party healer.
Tiefling (Demon-spawn – Str/Cha): Token evil party member.
Initially wanted to be a monk or a brawler. Ability scores suits a bloodrager. Maybe even a magus. Is NOT interested in claws or natural attacks-focus.
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A Shaman would really help this party: broad range of spells, including healing, buffing, battlefield control and utility. You could make a fire spirit Shaman to fit the Sarenrae theme. The extra movement from the cinder dance hex can make a full plate wearing Shaman more viable (spending a feat for proficiency).
An "Oradin" is an oracle (life mystery) multiclassed with a Paladin (with the hospitaler archetype, possibly stacked with Warrior of the Holy light). It's a very effective combat-healer. Thus I thought about making the half-orc Cleric disregard healing and open up for other needs. This guide would probably explain the premise better than I can: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257365-PF-Oradin-Mini-Guide-O r-How-to-be-a-Healbot-minus-the-bot
And you are pretty much spot on in your assessment. This team looks like it's very capable of healing and going into melee, but have very little in the realm of arcane possibilities. I was also worried that the arcane possibilities of the alchemist and the bloodrager wouldn't be enough. I'm wondering if there's a remedy for that.
On the more fluff side of things (glad you brought it up, by the way!), the "evil" descriptor was probably laying it on a bit thick. He might end up as someone evil-aligned on paper, mainly to describe his motivations and moral scruples. He'd probably be less concerned with what's good and evil, and if actions or people can be good/evil in and of themselves, and more concerned with what gives results. A Norgorber worshiper, possibly? The characters of this party are actually all family (apart from the alchemist who is a childhood friend) - And fortunately for the party though, one of the things the Tiefling actually loves is his family, enough to play ball with their ideals. I kind of like playing evil characters capable of loving and caring about something - and then coming to terms with how they love said person or cause and how it affects them.
Similarly, the Aasimar Paladin/Oracle mechanically has the "Covetous" curse making her, Fey-blooded as she is, easily smitten with materialistic, earthly goods and hedonistic excess which clashes with Sarenrae's virtue of modesty. While I don't think the player intends for her to fall from faith in the meta-game, I think her temptations and convictions might play into the character's portrayal. They might be good and evil on the character sheet, but there's a lot going on between that :)
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Back to the Crunch, though
I think one option could be to convince the Alchemist/Empiricist to play a Wizard (With a utility edge/focus). That might fill the arcane gap actually. We might still be far too many healers?
EDIT; I've noted Shaman as a possibility for one of the half-orcs! Thank you for bringing up the Fire Shaman as good Sarenrae flavor. We're a bit married to the concepts as you might see, so I'm very glad you took it into consideration! In other threads where I've asked for advice, I've had people almost disregard any thematic interest in favor of optimizing.
I might consider changing instead the human alchemist/investigator to a flamedancer bard. It'll provide more of the arcane support you're missing (HASTE!!), as well as some lovely combat bonuses for the bunch of beefcakes you're running with, some extra healing in case your oradin goes down, and flamedancer provides some decent control if you decide to use the flame song and then find a way to add smoke to the room, which there are tons of ways to do. When you can see and your enemies cant, your fighter types can just hack them down at will.
edit: yeah, changing the cleric to a shaman (especially if you grab the lore wandering spirit to pick up arcane spells if you choose) will flex things up a little, since the shaman list includes some witch/druid spells as well, so you'll be able to grab some spells you wouldnt be able to otherwise. As well, i recommended flame dancer because it should fit in well with a party of Sarenrae-ites ;)
Thank you for the suggestions! A Bard might not get all the way to the 9th lvl spells, but it would certainly improve the amount of arcane magic available. Also, while Sarenrae is a recurring spiritual thread for most of these characters due to their parents (our characters from a previous campaign) following the Dawnflower, not everyone follows the goddess. While mapping out the new line up, I thought I'd give a little look into the spiritual base of the party, just for fun :)
Human Sword/Shield - Brute (Agnostic - Not sure what I want with the gods or what they would want with me. Can't I just be me for a while and see?)
Half Orc Shaman - Controller/Combat (Sarenrae mostly. A little Gorum/Orc ancestral exploration to spice up the identity crisis)
Half Orc Flame Dancer - Buffer/Striker (Sarenrae worshipper. Scholarly and content with her own religious guiding wisdom.)
Human Alchemist/Empiricist/Wizard(??) - Skill Monkey/Arcane(?) (Might Worship Erastil or Abadar out of tradition due to merchant upbringing. Might have discovered Brigh: https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Brigh)
Aasimar Oradin - Healer/Combat (Studies Sarenrae with a Paladin order, hoping to give her direction. Might not be the best student, but tries.)
Tiefling Monk, Brawler or Bloodrager - Brute (None. But might admire Norgorbers pragmatic nature)
So it's a 3/6 for the dawnflower really, though I suspect her values will be influencing the party a lot.
I'm of the opinion that so long as the party isn't too skewed that the GM can just for what the party lacks. It looks like you'll have a full divine caster with player #2 and a skill monkey with player #4, which should be enough to get by. As to the specific characters:
Human: Sword & Board-build. Bull-rushes and rages.
- Might go for the viking archetype. Might multiclass with Barbarian. Might perhaps go superstitious barbarian with fighter lvls in order to cover Sword & Board Feats. Initially planned as a full martial class.
The Viking archetype is a poor choice; as a general rule of thumb any archetype that trades off weapon training isn't worth your time, and that's only gotten more severe since the weapon training class feature got a massive buff in the Weapon Master's Handbook with the Advanced Weapon Training options. Multiclassing barbarian is a perfectly fine way to get access to rage, though; you can take extra rage if you want to use it a bit more.
I'm not sure what he's planning on doing with bull rushing. In general you want to be adjacent to enemies so you can smack them with an attack of opportunity if they try to move.
Half-Orc: 2 hand martial with orc falchion. Possibly battle Cleric?
- Both Gorum and Sarenrae are flavourful deities for the character. Maybe use separatist to mix domains. Not sure which would be the best combo. Might go for Glory domain as it’s available to both Sarenrae and Gorum.
Battle clerics are good; can't go wrong with that approach. Gorum, appropriately, is a bit better suited than Sarenrae for this approach. Strength (Ferocity) and War (Tactics) are two I particularly like.
Tiefling (Demon-spawn – Str/Cha): Token evil party member.
Initially wanted to be a monk or a brawler. Ability scores suits a bloodrager. Maybe even a magus. Is NOT interested in claws or natural attacks-focus.
Just make sure to avoid the Eldritch Scion Magus archetype. It attracts a lot of people looking for a spontaneous-casting charisma-based Magus, but the archetype has a lot of pitfalls that need to be carefully built around to function correctly. No need to focus on claws or natural attacks; they're certainly a good option, but far from the only way to build such a character. Nothing wrong with a big old sword or axe.
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edit: yeah, changing the cleric to a shaman (especially if you grab the lore wandering spirit to pick up arcane spells if you choose) will flex things up a little, since the shaman list includes some witch/druid spells as well, so you'll be able to grab some spells you wouldnt be able to otherwise. As well, i recommended flame dancer because it should fit in well with a party of Sarenrae-ites ;)
Given the preference for a melee build, I wouldn't advise going the Lore|Arcane Enlightenment route — the stats would be too MAD. Instead, I would go for the Speaker for the Past archetype, which gives access to Heroism and Haste.
yeah, its an option, depending on how they generate stats and everything, but its definitely hugely MAD if you plan to melee. thats probably a much better way to go :)
If the party is leaning towards melee then folks might want to consider the Outflank and possibly Paired Opportunists (with the Gang Up combat feat) teamwork feats.
Outflank: When flanking the same creature the flanking attack bonus increases to +4. When one attacker crits the flanked creature their partner gets an attack of opportunity. This is a solid option on its own.
If people can spare the feats:
Paired Opportunists: +4 circumstance bonus on attacks of opportunity when you and an adjacent ally with this feat threaten the same target. If your ally gets an aoo then so do you.
Combined with Gang Up: You are considered flanking opponent so long as two allies are also threatening that same opponent regardless of actual positioning.
Side note: Idea for a combat encounter consisting of unchained rogue knife master halfling triplets each welding a pair of shocking/flaming/corrosive burst kukris (with Improved Crit).