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Pathfinder 1st Edition uses two interrelated definitions of "round." The first definition, used by the GM, means several turns from the beginning of initiative order to after the end of initiative order. The second definition, used by players, means from the beginning of the player's turn to the beginning of the player's next turn.
The Pathfinder 2nd Edition playtest rulebook gives only the first definition in its glossary:
Round Time during encounter mode is measured in rounds
of roughly 6 seconds of time in the game world. During the
course of a round, all creatures have a chance to act, in an order
determined by initiative. Learn more on page 304.
Page 304 also gives the same definition, until the section called, "Step 1: Start Your Turn." There, it says,
• If you created an effect that lasts for a certain number of
rounds, you reduce the number of rounds remaining. The
effect ends if the duration has expired. For example, if you
cast a spell on yourself that lasts 3 rounds on your first turn
of a fight, it would affect you during that turn, decrease to 2
rounds of duration at the start of your second turn, decrease
to 1 round of duration at the start of your third turn, and
expire at the start of your fourth turn.
For the Rage defined on page 53 for the Barbarian class, that definition causes no problems. The barbarian spends an action to rage on turn 1 and duration is set to 3 rounds. At the beginning of turn 2, rage duration counts down to 2 rounds. At the beginning of turn 3, rage duration counts down to 1 round. At the beginning of turn 4, rage duration counts down to zero, so it ends. Fatigue and cannot-rage begin immediately, also at the beginning of turn 4, so the barbarian is fatigued through all the actions of turn 4. At the beginning of turn 5, fatigue and cannot-rage duration count down to zero, so they end. Turn 5 has no fatigue and the barbarian can rage anew.
For the Rage defined on page 13 of Rules Update 1.6, the barbarian's rage ends when he fails a flat check at the end of his turn. The barbarian spends an action to rage on turn 1 and the flat check is set to DC 0. Thus, the barbarian always succeeds at that check and the rage continues in turn 2. At the end of turn 2, the barbarian makes a flat check of DC 5. Let's assume he succeeds and the rage continues in turn 3. At the end of turn 3, the barbarian makes a flat check of DC 10. Let's assume he fails and the rage ends immediately. The sentence,
"When your rage ends for any reason, you lose any remaining
temporary Hit Points from using the Rage action, you can’t use Rage
again for 1 round, and you’re fatigued for 1 round."
was copied with only minor changes from page 53 of the Playtest rulebook, so now it means that the fatigue and cannot-rage duration start on turn 3. At the beginning of turn 4, fatigue and cannot-rage duration count down to zero, so they end. Turn 4 has no fatigue and the barbarian can rage anew.
My opinion is that Rules Update 1.6 accidentally broke the rules as intended. Your group's interpretation is currently correct until Paizo fixes the rules.
I agree with Mathmuse, but I prefer to try to parse both rules together: the rule for when effects begin and end as well as the rule for rage ending immediately.
The developers clearly used the wording: "If you fail [your flat check], your rage ends immediately."
However, the word "immediately" which is the culprit here can still be interpreted to mean "immediately on the start of your next turn like all effects are expected to end".
So that's how I interpret it - it makes the 1.6 Rage work in a consistent fashion with the existing rules. Furthermore, interpreting "immediately" to mean "right now at the end of your turn" (which is also a valid interpretation but not consistent with the playtest rulebook) causes the barbarian to NEVER be fatigued for even one single action he takes.
That clearly cannot be the intent. The most interesting feature of "Fatigued" is how it gets worse with each action you take. Never getting to take actions means they could have just said "you take a -1 penalty to saves and AC until the start of your next turn".
In my mind, that makes two good reasons to start the Fatigue at the beginning of the barbarian's next turn and make it last until the beginning of the turn after that.
Thanks so much.
Alas, I am not quite finished. Zendar raised the same question at Rage 1.6 questions, but he searched for the rules on duration rather than the rules on fatigue or the rules on rounds. And he found another description on page 297.
Duration
Some effects last for a certain duration rather than
being resolved instantly. Once the duration has elapsed,
the effect expires and ends. The rules use the following
wording for durations in general, though spells have
some special types detailed on page 196.
For an effect that lasts a certain number of rounds, its
remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn
of the creature that created the effect. This is a common
duration for spells or beneficial effects targeting you or
your allies. Detrimental effects often last until the end of
the target’s next turn or through a number of their turns
(such as “through the target’s next 3 turns”), which means
that their duration decreases at the end of the turn rather
than the start.
A duration might also end only when a requirement
is met or ceases to be true. These effects last while that
requirement is met or until it’s met, respectively.
Thus, the rules do allow multi-round effects that expire at the end of the turn instead of the beginning of the turn. The key difference is that they measure their duration in "turns" rather than "rounds." A less subtle difference is that these end-of-turn multi-turn effects tend to be detrimental rather than beneficial, but that is only a tendency rather than a rule. So if the Rage in Update 1.6 were editted to say, "you can’t use Rage again for 1 turn, and you’re fatigued for 1 turn." then it would last longer.
The way my GM ruled is that failing the flat check at the end of the turn means you are no longer raging and are fatigued. The fatigue lasts 1 round, so it would last until it comes back to the point at which it started, the end of the Barbarian's turn.
This has a couple of effects:
A) The Barbarian will most likely only ever have a -1 penalty against enemies until the start of his next turn (unless they get themselves an AoO)
B)They still feel the full effects of the stacking penalty on all actions, until the turn ends and they are no longer fatigued.
In my opinion, this keeps with the Barbarian being winded, does not overly punish them for not being as tactical as Deep Blue, but can still leave them in a bad spot if they are too reckless and the GM has set up appropriate AoO's.
This isn't too hard to parse together. We should never HAVE to parse rules, but at least, in this case, we CAN parse them.
Almost everything about the Fatigued condition that makes it interesting or different from other similar conditions is the fact that if you are Fatigued and take actions, your penalties get worse. Challenging you to accept the penalties or to hold still and lose actions.
That makes Fatigue interesting. And it was an interesting question for barbarians right up until 1.6.
Are we to assume that a copy/paste error took all the interesting stuff out of Fatigued?
Hardly.
So, like all other conditions, the barbarian's fatigue begins at the start of his next round after his rage ends. From the point of view of the conditions rules, that qualifies as "immediately" since it cannot be more immediate without getting special rules which it did not get.
And it ends at the beginning of the barbarian's turn following the one where it started.
This way it affects the barbarian for EXACTLY on turn of his actions like it was meant to. If he takes actions during that turn, he increases his penalties, making him more vulnerable during the turns of every enemy on the battlefield. Which is exactly what Fatigue is supposed to do. Then, on the barbarian's next turn, the Fatigue ends.
If the Fatigue is somehow removed (e.g. by a magic spell) after it begins but before the barbarian's next turn, the CONDITION ends and the barbarian is no longer affected, exactly as Ungey's most recent post states.
None of this is too confusing if we think about it a bit. It's definitely MUCH clearer than mud.
None of us should HAVE to think about it because the rules should be clarified.
I'm sure they will be.
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Are we to assume that a copy/paste error took all the interesting stuff out of Fatigued?
Yes, we are to assume that the rules as written have nullified the fatigue as intended, because this is a playtest. Ungey and Zendar found the kind of problem that playtests are supposed to find.
If this were found in a published finished rulebook, then we would houserule the error away until an FAQ entry changes the rule for us. Or maybe the FAQ would tell us that that is how it is intended to work.
Since this is a playtest, we could houserule it away, but the important part is that we point out that the literal interpretation of the rules is probably not what the designers intended. Then they can fix it before it is published that way or rewrite it to emphasize that it does work as intended.
I see two issues:
1) Update 1.6 changed rage from ending at beginning of turn to ending at end of turn, so it is no longer compatible with the fatigue ending at beginning of turn as written.
2) Pathfinder developers could clarify the difference between end-of-turn duration and beginning-of-turn duration so that future developers, such as writers of splatbooks who are not necessarily as skilled as the Pathfinder 2nd Edition developers, won't make that mistake themselves. Or they could change how the two kinds of duration work so that mixing the two kinds will be compatible.
Are we to assume that a copy/paste error took all the interesting stuff out of Fatigued?Yes, we are to assume that the rules as written have nullified the fatigue as inI see two issues:
1) Update 1.6 changed rage from ending at beginning of turn to ending at end of turn, so it is no longer compatible with the fatigue ending at beginning of turn as written.
It would need to actually say that this breaks the rule. The word "immediately" can every easily be understood to mean "immediately at the start of your next turn because this is consistent with the rules". It doesn't have to mean "immediately now which breaks the rules for conditions".
It COULD mean that second one, but then the developers need to
a) say so
b) probably use something that isn't the Fatigued condition because the best thing about that condition having to spend a round deciding whether or not to take actions and make it worse, a decision that doesn't exist in this interpretation.
2) Pathfinder developers could clarify the difference between end-of-turn duration and beginning-of-turn duration so that future developers, such as writers of splatbooks who are not necessarily as skilled as the Pathfinder 2nd Edition developers, won't make that mistake themselves. Or they could change how the two kinds of duration work so that mixing the two kinds will be compatible.
Or, they could just remove the word "immediately" or clarify it to say "immediately at the start of your next turn" which is what it really means anyway.
To be sure, they MUST clarify their intent. It should not be up to players and GMs to decipher confusing rules. Even when we can.
It would need to actually say that this breaks the rule. The word "immediately" can every easily be understood to mean "immediately at the start of your next turn because this is consistent with the rules". It doesn't have to mean "immediately now which breaks the rules for conditions".Are we to assume that a copy/paste error took all the interesting stuff out of Fatigued?Yes, we are to assume that the rules as written have nullified the fatigue as inI see two issues:
1) Update 1.6 changed rage from ending at beginning of turn to ending at end of turn, so it is no longer compatible with the fatigue ending at beginning of turn as written.
If immediately does not mean as soon as possible, the game would have to invent a new word to mean as soon as possible.
I could understand "immediately" to mean a small delay until someone can make a change, so that the rage does not end the moment the d20 does to rest, because a reaction might be able to change it, but waiting though several players' turns is far from the usual definition of immediately.
An alternative interpretation is that DM_Blake means that Pathfinder 2nd Edition has an ironclad rule that any condition that would ordinarily would end at the beginning of a player's turn can end only at the beginning of that player's turn. I have seen no such rule.
It COULD mean that second one, but then the developers need to
a) say so
b) probably use something that isn't the Fatigued condition because the best thing about that condition having to spend a round deciding whether or not to take actions and make it worse, a decision that doesn't exist in this interpretation.
The developers did say so. The quote from page 13 in Update 1.6 is, "If you fail, your rage ends immediately."
The next paragraph says, "You can’t voluntarily stop raging while you’re in combat, but if you’re not in combat, you can
voluntarily end your rage by spending an action; this action has the concentrate and rage traits." I guess by DM_Blake's reasoning, that end-rage action causes the rage to end at the beginning of the barbarian's next turn, rather than the turn in which he or she spent that action.
And how would Calm Emotions work under this rule?
CALM EMOTIONS SPELL 2
Emotion, Enchantment, Mental
Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting
Range 120 feet; Area 10-foot burst
Duration concentration, up to 1 minute
Creatures in the area become calm, depending on their Will saves.
Success Calming urges give a –1 conditional penalty to attack rolls.
[/b]Critical Success[/b] The creature is unaffected.
Failure You suppress emotion effects and prevent the creature
from acting hostile. If it is subject to hostility from any other
creature, it ceases to be affected by calm emotions.
Critical Failure As failure, but hostility doesn’t end the effect.
I prefer DM_Blake's argument from yesterday, that the rules update was not meant to change the one full turn of fatigue, so take the literal words with a grain of salt.
My argument is that it was a non-obvious interaction between two kinds of durations and was not intended to remove the full turn of fatigue. The developers meant "immediately" literally, but had not looked ahead to the consequences and might change the wording on either the rage or the fatigue soon.
Trying to read the designers' minds, I think @DM_Blake is on the right track. I also think that is a very bad ruling. This opinion, that I just put in the devs' mouth's, is a bad one.
First, fatigued is a stupid condition, way too penalizing, too slow to end (well, not for barbarians) and, most of all, WAY to complex to track. I'd like it simplified greatly. Just give it a number, like other conditions, and Exhausted is now the same as fatigued 2.
Second, I feel the penalties of rage are too high now. Reducing them this way is a good thing.