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It is my understanding that Handle Animal can't be used with mindless creatures, which include vermin. Some racial and class features, however, allow this nonetheless. For example, some Galathains can combat-train riding bees using Handle Animal as they were creatures with Int 1.
My character does not possess any of such abilities, but buys one of such bees from a certified Galathain trainer. In the assumption that we are talking about a domesticated, combat-trained vermin who is used to be ridden and that doesn't see its rider as a threat:
1) Can my character relatively effortlessly direct it in combat? In other words, while mindless, is the bee still smart enough to understand what it is supposed to do as long as its rider does the appropriate Ride checks?
2) Since Galathains treat vermin as having Int 1, does it means that a trained bee can know up to three tricks? If so, can its not-Galathain rider issue any of these tricks without the need of an Handle Animal check?
An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks
3) What happens if the riding bee is equipped with a Bridle of Tricks?
4) If my character is under the effect of Speak with Animals, is the bee able to communicate any kind of intelligible information? Can the bee be equipped with a Circlet of Speaking?
5) In case the bee became hostile to its rider for any reason, I assume that Charm Animal would not work, being a mind-effecting spell. Is there anything the rider could do to befriend the bee again?
6) What would happen if the bee were equipped with a +2 Int item?
Thank you all for your help!
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Thanks for your answer!
I don't understand the part relative to Ride though. Usually, to ride a horse, no Handle Animal checks are necessary, as directing the mount is addressed by the Ride skill. In fact, a high-Dex, low-Cha character should have no problem riding a mount trained for this purpose. Wouldn't a combat-trained rinding bee simply act as a mindless vehicle as long as the circumstances are appropriate (like, not forcing it to go through fire)?
EDIT. Additional question:
7) Would the Vermin Driver trait help in regards to any of the points listed before?
Ultimate Magic have note on Vermin Animal Companions
Mindless: Vermin companions have no Intelligence score and possess the mindless trait. In spite of this, vermin companions may learn one trick, plus additional bonus tricks as noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. If a vermin animal companion gains an ability score increase (at 4 Hit Dice, 8 Hit Dice, and so on), the druid can apply this increase to the companion’s Intelligence, changing it from — to 1, at which point the companion loses the mindless quality and is able to know up to 3 tricks per point of Intelligence, plus the additional bonus tricks, as per Handle Animal. Vermin companions have no skill points or feats as long as they have the mindless quality.
I would say the bee can only have 1 trick (and its probably Serve, so trainer can designate you as owner and make bee follow your commands) + combat trained one would have attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel as part of combat training. While Serve allows you to use the handler's bonus, its up to your GM to decide if this means you can apply special qualities like ability to use it on vermin (from what i see RAW it does not).
Tho if you can get this spell it would make your life easier.
I think the easiest way to determine if you can do a thing with the bee is to consider could a person do the thing with a horse if they have no ranks in handle animal since the skill can not be used untrained.
1. If it's been combat trained there should be no issues riding it. You may get the -5 to your ride checks for it being an illsuited mount since it's not on the list of easily ridable creatures.
2. It does have 3 tricks, however, those tricks will not be accessible to you unless you have an ability to use handle animal with vermin. Just like a horse could know a bunch of tricks but unless it's rider has ranks in handle animal they would not be able to get the horse to perform those tricks.
3. by RAW this item won't work on the bee since it's a vermin. But it does say that with DM discretion it could work on "creatures with unusual anatomy". So, if the DM rules that it works then the bee would gain additional tricks. However, #2 would still apply.
4. Unless you have an ability to make the bee count as an animal speak with animals will not help. The circlet would not function under normal circumstances.
5. Charm animal would not help, however, the spell control vermin would not only allow you to calm the animals but would grant you full access to the bee's capabilities.
6. Either the item would simply not work on the bee or the bee would gain an intelligence of 2 after 24 hours. In the latter case it would lose the mindless quality but would gain skill points and feats appropriate for a vermin of an intelligence of 2. It would also be capable of knowing more tricks.
Based on
Mindless: Vermin companions have no Intelligence score and possess the mindless trait. In spite of this, vermin companions may learn one trick, plus additional bonus tricks as noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. If a vermin animal companion gains an ability score increase (at 4 Hit Dice, 8 Hit Dice, and so on), the druid can apply this increase to the companion’s Intelligence, changing it from — to 1, at which point the companion loses the mindless quality and is able to know up to 3 tricks per point of Intelligence, plus the additional bonus tricks, as per Handle Animal. Vermin companions have no skill points or feats as long as they have the mindless quality.
Disregard he first part, I realised that Combat Training does not grant additional tricks, more like requires an animal to have them.
Thanks for your answer!
I don't understand the part relative to Ride though. Usually, to ride a horse, no Handle Animal checks are necessary, as directing the mount is addressed by the Ride skill. In fact, a high-Dex, low-Cha character should have no problem riding a mount trained for this purpose. Wouldn't a combat-trained rinding bee simply act as a mindless vehicle as long as the circumstances are appropriate (like, not forcing it to go through fire)?
EDIT. Additional question:
7) Would the Vermin Driver trait help in regards to any of the points listed before?
7. Yes, this trait grants the similar benefits as control vermin. Also, since it specifically treats it as if it had an int of 1, you would be able to teach it 3 tricks instead of the normal 1.
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Thank you all for your replies so far. I really appreciate your help guys!
To summarise what has be said:
- In normal circumstances, tricks are out of the picture because, even if the bee knows any, I can't access to them. Fair enough.
- I should be able to ride the bee without any problem as long as the ride doesn't include pushing the bee against its instincts (that is, it doesn't call for a Handle Animal checks).
- Good call about Control Vermin, DarkPhoenixx and LordKailas! I didn't know about it and it does solve lots of problems in case my mount gets iffy.
Technically speaking, sort of. With an effective intelligence of 1 a vermin could be trained to act as a Riding Animal, but not Combat Trained which requires 2 int.
The entry for riding bees specifically calls-out combat trained bees, and they cost 50% more than their base version. So I feel confident assuming that, whatever method was used to train them, once bought they are, for any intent and purpose, trained for mounted combat.
Vermin Driver would give you the necessary ability to use handle animal on Vermin and train them. It should work on Vermin that you didn't train as well since it doesn't specify.
7. Yes, this trait grants the similar benefits as control vermin. Also, since it specifically treats it as if it had an int of 1, you would be able to teach it 3 tricks instead of the normal 1.
How do you interpret the text of the trait:
You were instructed in the subtle magic of enslaving vermin, and can train mindless vermin with the Handle Animal skill as if they were animals with an Intelligence score of 1.
To me it seems I can use Handle Animal only to train the vermin (which I guess means teaching tricks and/or training for general purpose). It doesn't include however the basic use of the skill, which is also the one that lets me issue the actual trick, which doesn't make much sense to me.
What are your opinions about this?
Also, further opinions are welcome, so keem them coming!
How do you interpret the text of the trait:
You were instructed in the subtle magic of enslaving vermin, and can train mindless vermin with the Handle Animal skill as if they were animals with an Intelligence score of 1.To me it seems I can use Handle Animal only to train the vermin (which I guess means teaching tricks and/or training for general purpose). It doesn't include however the basic use of the skill, which is also the one that lets me issue the actual trick, which doesn't make much sense to me.
What are your opinions...
A strict reading of it would mean you can only use the train option under handle animal. Except, there is no option just labeled train, there is however, the option "Train an Animal for a Purpose". So at the very least you should be able to do this. This interpretation may exclude the option to teach individual tricks to the animal since this application isn't labeled "training".
IMO I agree with you that a reasonable interpretation would be that you can only use the handle animal skill with vermin for checks related to tricks. This would mean you could do the following:
*Handle an Animal
*Teach an Animal a Trick
*Train an Animal for a Purpose
This makes logical sense to me, since it seems weird that you could train an animal how to fight (includes the tricks: attack, down, and stay), but would be unable to teach it how to just stay. It makes even less sense that you could train the animal yourself but then be unable to make it do any of the tricks you taught it (how do you know you've actually trained it?!).
The trait would not allow you to do the following with vermin.
*Push an Animal
*Rear a wild animal
This could make some sense, perhaps the trait simply represents that you only know how to train animals that have already been "broken" and you don't know how to "force" the animal to do something without a lot of training.