Cleric is too strong, Cleric is too weak. A lopsided issue

[shroudb]

Richard Crawford wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

Tridus wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

Sure, Fireball doesn't gain any damage unless you cast it from a higher level spell slot...but it's save DC is no longer pitiful at higher levels.

The lack of scaling means that as you get to higher level, the spell simply isn't going to do enough damage to matter after a while. That's the real problem with damage spells.

In PF1, the DC didn't scale, which meant that as you got to higher levels, the spell simply won't do enough damage (because it'll always be halved) to matter after a while.

Which would you rather have?

It's what stops most casters casting the same spells for their whole careers. That second-level slot that had Flaming Sphere in it at level for will be used for Resist Energy or Scorching Ray at level ten. and the per-caster-level scaling makes it remain useful.

Unfortunately, PF2 doesn't make that dynamic workable. Your second level slots will be largely ineffective at level ten, and there's not much you can use them for that's not obsoleted.

i find it the opposite really.

now, on high levels, your low level slots are much much better compared to old edition.

Due to DC scaling and no hard "HD limits" on any spells, all spells apart from your blast work the same at level 1 and at level 20.

command, sleep, color spray, fear, true strike, etcetcetc

basically they are much more usable compared to old edition which were mostly used as fodder slots.

[citricking]

The spell list isn't really bad compared to the other lists. They are aware that spells in general are a bit under powered. A problem is that lots of domains and spells suck, so if you select them you won't be effective. There's also the player to take into account, if they make dumb decisions they won't be effective.

The divine list does have some nice spells I think. Calm emotions was great, it has blindness, heroism, and fear. It doesn't have many good spells but no spell list has many good spells. It looks as good as arcane to me.

[Starfox]

Ediwir wrote:

That while the channel is so extremely powerful that it eclipses every other player at the table, the cleric that carries it around is actually pretty bad.

Low casting (for this edition). A very restricted spell list, most of which is highly situational. Spells that depend on your god's alignment, but with no compensation for neutral gods (my guy is a Pharasman because of flavour reasons. He feels terrible...

I feel this is a pretty good description of clerics of ANY edition of the game, from 1E forward. Guess that's why I have very rarely seen one in play.

[Dasrak]

Starfox wrote:

I feel this is a pretty good description of clerics of ANY edition of the game, from 1E forward.

That really wasn't the case in PF or 3E; clerics are an absolutely superb class in a wide variety of ways, not just healing. The spontaneous conversion class feature was nice because clerics really do have better things to spend their spell slots on that playing doctor, and this let them have their cake and eat it too. You could easily make a cleric that go toe-to-toe with the fighter while offering excellent utility to the party and still being a solid healer when it was needed. While many people didn't particularly like the cleric because of how bland it felt, the class certainly was powerful in a wide variety of ways.

[Starfox]

Well, CoDzilla was not really a good thing, but I admit it was possible. I just never saw one in play.

[shroudb]

Starfox wrote:

Ediwir wrote:

That while the channel is so extremely powerful that it eclipses every other player at the table, the cleric that carries it around is actually pretty bad.

Low casting (for this edition). A very restricted spell list, most of which is highly situational. Spells that depend on your god's alignment, but with no compensation for neutral gods (my guy is a Pharasman because of flavour reasons. He feels terrible...

I feel this is a pretty good description of clerics of ANY edition of the game, from 1E forward. Guess that's why I have very rarely seen one in play.

i skipped 3.5 and went from 2 to 3 to pf.

but i can easily say that in 2,3 and pf Cleric was an absolute powerhouse.

For starters, need i remind you of heal/harm of 3rd edition (no save: reduce anything and everything to 1d4 hp)?

Reason that you don't see as many pure casters* is that after a while, "i cast a spell obliterating my opponents/turning the battle totally in our favor/doing something ridiculous" and then "yawn till the martials clean up", gets boring pretty fast.

That's why you'll alawys see characters that can reliably do something important every round, rather than characters who do something insane 1 turn, and the rest of the combat they play with their phones.

*:from the base set. Later casters with at will powers to spam in between rounds like witches alleviated that boredom issue.

[Dasrak]

Starfox wrote:

Well, CoDzilla was not really a good thing, but I admit it was possible. I just never saw one in play.

There's a spectrum from "completely unoptimized healbot" up to "CoDzilla", and there was ample middle-ground to build a powerful and versatile character who isn't gamebreaking.

[Ediwir]

As of 1.6, Channel has been reduced to only work Cha bonus times per day, from 3+Cha bonus.

While this is a fairly big nerf, cutting Channel values by a large amount (but not a huge one - remember Domain powers, Cha bonus, and Paladin's spell point powers), it still does not address the spell list.

I still hope Paizo will boost the Cleric's spell list, but it'll be a while before I can see that.

[Don Raccoon]

Ediwir wrote:

As of 1.6, Channel has been reduced to only work Cha bonus times per day, from 3+Cha bonus.

While this is a fairly big nerf, cutting Channel values by a large amount (but not a huge one - remember Domain powers, Cha bonus, and Paladin's spell point powers), it still does not address the spell list.

I still hope Paizo will boost the Cleric's spell list, but it'll be a while before I can see that.

1st time poster, just to come on a complain about this nerf.

Reducing the number of times per day, fine. But make it the 3 part of the equation, not the Cha Mod part.

You can now have a starting Cleric with no channel uses a day, meaning the only way they get to impact the group is to use their 2 spells a day as Heal spells. Not memorise something else and turn them into heal spells like 3rd Edition, just a simple memorise them as Heal. Like 2nd Edition.

2nd Edition!!! That edition sucked and Clerics even more so.

Just had 1st session of PF2 game, as a Cleric, and now they broke my character. Am Cha 16 so still get uses, but half as many and without anything else to back it up, I went from "I'll be a healing cleric!" to "Well I can still heal, but only half as much.... so no getting too hurt!"

With 4 other characters in the group and higher starting hit points than there used to be, folks will have to get used to remaining injured.

Being a healing focussed character, I went for a gnome with Str 8 and Dex 12. Was all about Wis & Cha. Regretting that now.

[shroudb]

Don Raccoon wrote:

Ediwir wrote:

As of 1.6, Channel has been reduced to only work Cha bonus times per day, from 3+Cha bonus.

While this is a fairly big nerf, cutting Channel values by a large amount (but not a huge one - remember Domain powers, Cha bonus, and Paladin's spell point powers), it still does not address the spell list.

I still hope Paizo will boost the Cleric's spell list, but it'll be a while before I can see that.

1st time poster, just to come on a complain about this nerf.

Reducing the number of times per day, fine. But make it the 3 part of the equation, not the Cha Mod part.

You can now have a starting Cleric with no channel uses a day, meaning the only way they get to impact the group is to use their 2 spells a day as Heal spells. Not memorise something else and turn them into heal spells like 3rd Edition, just a simple memorise them as Heal. Like 2nd Edition.

2nd Edition!!! That edition sucked and Clerics even more so.

Just had 1st session of PF2 game, as a Cleric, and now they broke my character. Am Cha 16 so still get uses, but half as many and without anything else to back it up, I went from "I'll be a healing cleric!" to "Well I can still heal, but only half as much.... so no getting too hurt!"

With 4 other characters in the group and higher starting hit points than there used to be, folks will have to get used to remaining injured.

Being a healing focussed character, I went for a gnome with Str 8 and Dex 12. Was all about Wis & Cha. Regretting that now.

heal is still the most powerful healing spell in the game

and for a healing focused character, with Cha to boot, you can always go for healing domain and get extra heals from your SP.

A staff of healing also allows you to spontaneously convert spells to heal by spending your RP.

Now, 0+Cha may be a touch too little (a lot of folk are saying 1+Cha would have been better)

but before, you could have a cleric with 0 investment in healing being a better healer than, as an example, a divine sorcerer fully invested into healing.

and that's just bad balance.

We still don't know (and we will never find out afaik) the new stat lines for monsters, and since we know they were overtuned already, we can also expect a drop in party damage.

Lastly, i see no issue of "adventuring when not in full HP" with Treat wounds for after combat. Heal and spells are now only for combat encounters.

[Don Raccoon]

shroudb wrote:

heal is still the most powerful healing spell in the game

and for a healing focused character, with Cha to boot, you can always go for healing domain and get extra heals from your SP.

A staff of healing also allows you to spontaneously convert spells to heal by spending your RP.

Now, 0+Cha may be a touch too little (a lot of folk are saying 1+Cha would have been better)

but before, you could have a cleric with 0 investment in healing being a better healer than, as an...

Higher domain powers and magic staves don't help 1st level characters.

Treat wounds at 1st level will be 1hp of healing for most people.

I'm not saying Clerics are bad now, but it's a serious hit to the low level Clerics.

[Data Lore]

I still say they should flat remove channel from the game and put in good old spontaneous heal conversion.

No CHA necessary and way more balanced than giving a class a bunch of extra high level spell slots for heal.

[Tridus]

Data Lore wrote:

I still say they should flat remove channel from the game and put in good old spontaneous heal conversion.

No CHA necessary and way more balanced than giving a class a bunch of extra high level spell slots for heal.

They would need to add back some spell slots for that, considering how Clerics already have fewer than both Sorcerers and Wizards (and half what they had in 1e, where that conversion existed).

With the number of slots now, conversion without channel means "you can't cast anything high level because you'll probably need it for Heal", which is the absolute worst thing they can possibly do if the goal is to have people actually want to play Clerics.

[Tridus]

Don Raccoon wrote:

1st time poster, just to come on a complain about this nerf.

Reducing the number of times per day, fine. But make it the 3 part of the equation, not the Cha Mod part.

You can now have a starting Cleric with no channel uses a day, meaning the only way they get to impact the group is to use their 2 spells a day as Heal spells. Not memorise something else and turn them into heal spells like 3rd Edition, just a simple memorise them as Heal. Like 2nd Edition.

2nd Edition!!! That edition sucked and Clerics even more so.

Just had 1st session of PF2 game, as a Cleric, and now they broke my character. Am Cha 16 so still get uses, but half as many and without anything else to back it up, I went from "I'll be a healing cleric!" to "Well I can still heal, but only half as much.... so no getting too hurt!"

With 4 other characters in the group and higher starting hit points than there used to be, folks will have to get used to remaining injured.

Being a healing focussed character, I went for a gnome with Str 8 and Dex 12. Was all about Wis & Cha. Regretting that now.

Yeah I'm with you on it. If Channel itself is too powerful, rebalancing away from it is fine. But they didn't do that. They took the nerfbat to it and didn't really do anything else (except forcing you to have a free hand to cast AoE Heal, but I don't think that was intended). Aside from Channel, the class isn't that strong, so this really stings.

Also, the whole value in having a dedicated pool of healing is that it lets you use your other stuff for things that aren't healing, and doesn't trap you in the healbot role. This change is pushing backwards, really. Nobody (even us healers) wants a class that isn't allowed to use high level slots for other spells because those could also be Heal, especially since right now Heal is arguably the best spell in the game.

I was really hoping they'd do something else at the same time to make up for the loss in more interesting ways, but just doing this and nothing else did a real number on my interest in the class.

[Ediwir]

Indeed.
While this thread is ALSO a complaint about Channel's excessive power, it came to being as a joint complaint between the power of Channel and the weakness of Cleric.
Addressing one does not impact the other.

(and yes, the number of channels need adjustment regardless - 1 to 3 would be better than 0 to 4)

[Draco18s]

Don Raccoon wrote:

Reducing the number of times per day, fine. But make it the 3 part of the equation, not the Cha Mod part.

You can now have a starting Cleric with no channel uses a day, meaning the only way they get to impact the group is to use their 2 spells a day as Heal spells.

All they needed to do was add a "Minimum 1" on the end.

[swordchucks]

I'd honestly have been happy to just make Channel Energy an option for the spell pool and leave it at that. I don't dislike Channel, I just dislike how strong it made clerics compared to any other healing option. Even with this, clerics are still better healers than the other classes since the goodberry boost was terrible (and completely missed what was wrong with it in the first place).

[Draco18s]

swordchucks wrote:

I'd honestly have been happy to just make Channel Energy an option for the spell pool and leave it at that.

Or that. Which I mentioned...somewhere.

[Don Raccoon]

swordchucks wrote:

I'd honestly have been happy to just make Channel Energy an option for the spell pool and leave it at that. I don't dislike Channel, I just dislike how strong it made clerics compared to any other healing option. Even with this, clerics are still better healers than the other classes since the goodberry boost was terrible (and completely missed what was wrong with it in the first place).

I'd argue they should be the strongest.

They could make your channel power linked to your domain. Healing clerics can Heal, other clerics do other things. That way only the dedicated Healer is a super healer.

Would be a major overhaul of the channel ability, as you would need powers for all domains, but would make the channel ability more thematic, give your cleric a stronger identity.

More "I'm a cleric of protection and channel to shield allies!" than "I'm a cleric of protection and channel.... to heal... yeah I guess it protects, but prevention is better than a cure, right?"

[Tridus]

Don Raccoon wrote:

I'd argue they should be the strongest.

They could make your channel power linked to your domain. Healing clerics can Heal, other clerics do other things. That way only the dedicated Healer is a super healer.

That would make sense. Rather than just giving out lots of healing to every one, give out lots of healing to the people that want to be healers and something more thematically appropriate to other deities.

Quote:

Would be a major overhaul of the channel ability, as you would need powers for all domains, but would make the channel ability more thematic, give your cleric a stronger identity.

More "I'm a cleric of protection and channel to shield allies!" than "I'm a cleric of protection and channel.... to heal... yeah I guess it protects, but prevention is better than a cure, right?"

It's an overhaul, but not a super huge one. Channel right now is really just a pool of one heightened spell. Change the spell for different deities. They already do that with the ones that give Harm instead, and a feat lets you use Restoration with it.

Or make it cover all the Domain spells and just put Heal and Harm into a few of those lists. At that point it's functioning similar to the bonus spells other casters get from bloodlines/schools, except it's heightened and you have less of them.

Doesn't fix that CHA is basically a mandatory stat for Clerics, but it does solve some other issues.

[Ediwir]

That'd be nice, except for the fact that Heal is the best spell a Cleric has.
We need more good spells before we can think of altering Channel any further...