Please consider Feint for Alchemist Bombs. Because this vial is filled with the deadliest acid known!!!

[The Once and Future Kai]

I've mentioned elsewhere that I have a Smokebomb happy Alchemist in one of my groups. Well he's further convinced me that Alchemists need some method for using Feint with their bombs.

Last session he had a Thunderstone in one hand and an Alchemist's Fire in the other. Turning to the enemy, he shouted to his allies, "Cover your ears!" Not that there are any rules for this but I let the enemy cover it's ears as a reaction. Then he threw the Alchemist's Fire (we all laughed but I didn't give him a bonus on the attack - just a Hero Point).

It seems natural to give the Alchemist some kind of Feint ability. Even if it's throwing a vial of water at the foe after claiming it's acid...and then following up with a real Bomb.

Normally Feint is limited to melee attacks so it would need a Feat making a specific exception for bombs.

[PsychicPixel]

Your already throwing the bombs against TAC. I don't think to telling the enemy that they don't want to get hit by the bomb will do anything other than make them not want to get hit by it.

Maybe throwing two bombs at the same time. One as a distraction to gives flat-footed if it's attack succeeds and does splash damage and the other has the normal chance to succeed.

Though if that was what you were after just use a bottled lighting to cause flat-footed then, pull and throw another bomb cause you can still do that.

[The Once and Future Kai]

PsychicPixel wrote:

Your already throwing the bombs against TAC. I don't think to telling the enemy that they don't want to get hit by the bomb will do anything other than make them not want to get hit by it.

Good point. I missed that Feint grants Flat-Footed...which doesn't affect TAC. Hmm.

[Fuzzypaws]

The Once and Future Kai wrote:

PsychicPixel wrote:

Your already throwing the bombs against TAC. I don't think to telling the enemy that they don't want to get hit by the bomb will do anything other than make them not want to get hit by it.

Good point. I missed that Feint grants Flat-Footed...which doesn't affect TAC. Hmm.

-2 to AC would also apply to TAC unless it specifically says otherwise, which the definition of flat footed does not.

[The Once and Future Kai]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

-2 to AC would also apply to TAC unless it specifically says otherwise, which the definition of flat footed does not.

Good to know. I missed that standard and it did come up last session (for a different mechanic). Sounds like I misruled. My poor party.

Touch Armor Class wrote:

Some effects, items, or abilities (such as spells) require only contact, not a solid impact, to hit. This is called a touch attack. To determine if a touch attack hits a target, make an attack roll (either melee or ranged, as appropriate) and compare the result to the target’s Touch Armor Class (TAC). Your TAC is typically lower than your AC.

Anything that gives you a bonus or penalty to Armor Class also gives you an equal bonus or penalty to Touch Armor Class unless stated otherwise.

And there it is. So Flat Footed would be of benefit.

[PsychicPixel]

It would which is why I suggested just throwing a bottled lightning first to give the enemy flat-footed to ALL creatures until the start of your next turn. Then you can just throw another bomb at it after that. Sure it will be at a -5 penalty but the creature would be flat-footed for you and your allies until your next turn instead of just you. And you are still hitting against TAC.

[Zwordsman]

hum.. I'm not sure if it was pointed out. but Feint works within Melee range, and only benefits a melee strike.
So.. no matter what, feinting wont' provide any benefit for Bombs.

Unless you have some way to make Feint turn it flatfooted for all in one round... but I don't know of any effect that buffs Feint as such.

As a random side bit..
Feint reallllly needs to work for thrown weapons I think. Melee and Thrown.

This just piles on the superiority of Intimidate

[The Once and Future Kai]

Zwordsman wrote:

hum.. I'm not sure if it was pointed out. but Feint works within Melee range, and only benefits a melee strike.

So.. no matter what, feinting wont' provide any benefit for Bombs.

Last sentence of opening post. ;-)

Zwordsman wrote:

Unless you have some way to make Feint turn it flatfooted for all in one round... but I don't know of any effect that buffs Feint as such.

I was wondering about something like that. It definitely feels thematic for the throwing a vial of water and claiming it's poison.

As it is, Demoralize is vastly superior for Rogues once they gain Dread Striker.

Zwordsman wrote:

Feint reallllly needs to work for thrown weapons I think. Melee and Thrown.

Definitely feels like it's thematic for thrown daggers to benefit from Feint.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Sounds like a great skill feat:

Trick shot

Requires trained deception

You can make feint against a target within 20 feet, and your target is now flatfooted against both ranged and melee attacks.

This would also let you get away with other tricks, like the classic "hey, look over there!"

[Zwordsman]

had to go check.
ah darn. I had thought that Crit Successes lacked the melee strike verbage.

Sidenote:
in another forum post someone was talking through things about melee weapons with ranged and ranged weapon category. it is true that there are some weird details there.

I think it should specify "melee weapons" because that would still allow melee weapons thrown with the ranged strike action.
Daggers for instance are classified as melee weapons, but can be thrown with a ranged strike.
Darts are ranged weapons that can be only thrown.
---------

in a general note... I feel like so many classes will want a whip now. It can be finessed, it has reach, the Die is about the same size as any other finesse situation. the only issue is it being 1 bulk... which really is only an issue for Alchemists. (cause they inset have 3 bulk before armour or weapons or non class required gear). So providing flanking, or feinting is safer for them.

I really wish that Feint was 30ft range, Even if it was still restricted to only Melee strikes. It would be awesome for Alchemists, bards, and rogue provide party buffs via a lucky crit.
then again..
Intimidate does that. so just intimidate. It is probably easier DC on most things as well come to think of it... since Feint is vs Perception DC and Intimidate against Will DC.

I know my rogue loves intimidate+feint+whip trip. In concept anyway. I haven't tried it yet.