Domain melee touch attack, doest it generate aoo?


Rules Questions


That, if i want to use one of the melee touch attacks granted by a domain, such as vision of madness from madness domain ¿Do i generate atacks of oportunity?

Thank you


Yes, it does generate an Attack of Opportunity, but ONLY when you activate the Vision of Madness (not when you make the Touch Attack).

All Touch Attacks are considered making an Armed Attack, so you would not generate an AoO from making the Touch Attack.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

However, your Vision of Madness is a spell-like ability because of the (Sp) beside the name.

Vision of Madness wrote:
Vision of Madness (Sp): You can give a creature a vision of madness as a melee touch attack. Choose one of the following: attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. The target receives a bonus to the chosen rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum +1) and a penalty to the other two types of rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum –1). This effect fades after 3 rounds. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

And, in the combat rules, activating a spell-like ability does in fact provoke an Attack of Opportunity.

Table: Actions in Combat wrote:

Standard Actions Provokes an Attack of Opportunity?
Attack (melee) No
Attack (ranged) Yes
Attack (unarmed) Yes
Activate a magic item other than a potion or oil No
Aid another Maybe2
Cast a spell (1 standard action casting time) Yes
Channel energy No
Concentrate to maintain an active spell No
Dismiss a spell No
Draw a hidden weapon (see Sleight of Hand skill) No
Drink a potion or apply an oil Yes
Escape a grapple No
Feint No
Light a torch with a tindertwig Yes
Lower spell resistance No
Read a scroll Yes
Ready (triggers a standard action) No
Stabilize a dying friend (see Heal skill) Yes
Total defense No
Use extraordinary ability No
Use skill that takes 1 action Usually
Use spell-like ability Yes
Use supernatural ability No

So, if I were you, cast your spell like ability, then make your move action and touch the bad guy as a free action, and you won't generate an AoO (unless you cast the spell-like ability near an enemy who threatens you).


Vision of Madness is an ambiguous case, because unlike usual Spell-Like Abilites, the text of Vision of Madness implies that the action to apply Vision of Madness *is* the touch attack, not a "casting" action that then provides a free touch attack if you want. The Action/Provoke type tables in the CRB are a good guideline, but are often overruled by the specifics of how special abilities work. And the statement "function very much like spells" carries the same disclaimer all such general statements do, which is "...unless this general case is contradicted by a specific ability's own text".

Compare:

Quote:
Dismissive Touch (Sp): At 8th level, you can cast dismissal once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to your inquisitor level) upon making a successful unarmed touch attack against an evil outsider. The DC to save against this ability increases by 2.
Quote:
Vision of Madness (Sp): You can give a creature a vision of madness as a melee touch attack. Choose one of the following: attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. The target receives a bonus to the chosen rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum +1) and a penalty to the other two types of rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum –1). This effect fades after 3 rounds. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

"Give a creature a vision of madness as a melee touch attack" doesn't sound like you're casting a spell, it sounds like you're activating the ability through a touch attack.

Anyhow, if one wants to argue that Visions of Madness is "cast" just like a spell, then you're totally free to "cast" Visions of Madness defensively and thus not provoke anyhow. You would also be free to walk around carrying a charge of Visions of Madness after "casting" it, but refusing to make the touch attack.

Or, you can invest in Domain Strike to deliver it through a non-provoking swift action, or invest in a Conductive weapon to deliver it as a non-action.


Use Special Ability wrote:

Using a special ability is usually a standard action, but whether it is a standard action, a full-round action, or not an action at all is defined by the ability.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.

Using a Spell-Like Ability on the Defensive: You may attempt to use a spell-like ability on the defensive, just as with casting a spell. If the concentration check (DC 15 + double the spell’s level) fails, you can’t use the ability, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability.

Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Regardless of the amount of time it takes to cast the spell-like ability, whether it's a standard, full-round, or no time at all, all SLA's provoke AoO's per the rules. In order for an SLA to not provoke an AoO, it would have to say so in the specific description of the SLA in question, and it doesn't.

So yes, it provokes an AoO whenever you activate it. No it does not provoke an AoO when you make the Touch Attack.


An SLA activated as a swift action doesn't provoke, because (and for the same reason that) a spell cast with a swift action doesn't provoke. The idea that a non-action would provoke makes absolutely no sense at all, even besides the fact that it's "faster" still than a swift action. Just repeating what some CRB reference table says isn't a replacement for referencing how the system works.

What's ambiguous about abilities like Vision of Madness is that their description doesn't say anything about "casting" at all, and merely describes activation as making a touch attack. Normal Spell-like abilities use the word 'cast', while some unusual ones don't, which suggests they are an exception. The Necromancer's Grave Touch is an even stronger example - it says "you can make a melee touch attack that...", which certainly doesn't sound like it's supposed to work like casting a touch spell, and unlike normal SLA's doesn't seem to involve anything resembling "casting" at all.


Lots of spell-like abilities don't bother to use the word "cast". They are still spell-like abilities, with all that the category entails. Vision of madness isn't worded particularly differently from other domain or arcane school spell-like abilities; it requires no special treatment.


The CRB says "a Spell-Like Ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description". So by default, most SLA's involve a defined 'casting' time and action, which is why they provoke.

However, note the "unless noted otherwise in the spell or ability description".

So if an ability like Grave Touch says "as a standard action, you can make a melee touch attack that...", clearly the default standard spellcasting action most SLA's use to activate has been replaced by a standard melee touch attack action to activate. If the spellcasting action has been replaced by a melee touch attack action, and it's the spellcasting action that causes an SLA to provoke, then what would cause Grave Touch to provoke?

For that matter, was it really the intent of the devs to make a spellcaster forced to activate an ability in melee range and succeed at a touch attack also face provoking?

Well anyhow, a defensive casting check gets around provoking, as does use through a non-provoking action.


Note the italicised text, as you've already used bold.

BadBird wrote:

The CRB says "a Spell-Like Ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description". So by default, most SLA's involve a defined 'casting' time and action, which is why they provoke.

However, note the "unless noted otherwise in the spell or ability description".

So if an ability like Grave Touch says "as a standard action, you can make a melee touch attack that...", clearly the default standard spellcasting action most SLA's use to activate has been replaced by a standard melee touch attack action to activate. If the spellcasting action has been replaced by a melee touch attack action, and it's the spellcasting action that causes an SLA to provoke, then what would cause Grave Touch to provoke?

For that matter, was it really the intent of the devs to make a spellcaster forced to activate an ability in melee range and succeed at a touch attack also face provoking?

Well anyhow, a defensive casting check gets around provoking, as does use through a non-provoking action.

The spellcasting isn't replaced by, but in addition to, even if it doesn't say so outright. An Inflict Light Wounds spell still requires a touch, but casting that also provokes. In my mind, you still have to activate the magic to cause it to happen. It doesn't come for free. Otherwise every time you shook someone's hand, they'll piss their pants (in the case of Grave Touch). And that activation of magic is what provokes, because it's spell-like. There's just a stupidly vague distinction between supernatural and spell-like that determines whether it provokes or not.


BadBird wrote:


For that matter, was it really the intent of the devs to make a spellcaster forced to activate an ability in melee range and succeed at a touch attack also face provoking?

Yes, I do believe they did that on purpose. Firstly, Touch Attacks are really powerful, especially because they target Touch AC, which is almost 80% of the time going to be the lowest AC of the creature, AND that Touch Spell stays on you as a charge until you do make the Touch Attack successfully. And secondly, you have to concentrate to cast a spell or SLA, regardless of how long it takes to complete the spell; it only makes sense that if you saw another creature/person concentrating on casting a spell right next to you (if even only for a moment), that you'd be able to get an AoO on that guy.


The caster can still activate the ability out of range, move (either as a 5-foot step or as a move action), and deliver the touch as a free action, just as they would for, e.g., shocking grasp.


sadly this ability is an (Sp) and not an (Su) so it does provoke an AoO before the touch.
As Blapers said, the usual process is to cast(or do whatever it is that provokes) 5 ft away and then step in for the touch. That way you avoid provoking the AoO in the first place. Hopefully the spell incapacitates your foe or you're in trouble. Spells that help are Spectral Hand or Long Arm.


How do you activate an ability that is activated as a standard action melee touch when not adjacent to the target? Grave Touch is specifically listed as a standard action melee touch.

My whole point is that people are ignoring the text of abilities that imply or directly state that they activate as a touch attack action in favor of the assumption that they work as a default spellcasting action.


They work as a "use spell-like ability" action, which is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. They also use the rules for spell-like abilities in general, which is that have no components, cannot be counterspelled, and otherwise work basically like a spell. This includes grave touch (sp)--you still have to "cast" the spell-like ability to use it, you still provoke an attack of opportunity, you can still lose the spell if your concentration is disrupted, and so on.

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