So, I don't much like some of my Bloodline spells. Can I swap them out as I level?
I don't see anything in the rules that says I can't but I may have missed something.
I don't believe you can unfortunately { I for the flavour of it but wouldn't mind a half measure, where you need to have the spell somewhere in you repertoire, but you have the ability to retrain that spell to higher levels, or back to its lower level}
This is because, unlike your other spells that you were able to choose, those spells were added through a class feature, ie your bloodline. Its the same as a Bard gaining the 'Inspire Courage' cantrip because of a class feature. Even though its a cantrip, and you can retrain cantrips, you can't retrain 'Inspire Courage' into 'Detect Magic', because it was added through a class feature.
In order to change it you would need to be able to switch that feature with another {impossible for Inspire Courage, as you get it automatically without a choose}. Not 100% sure if you can change out your bloodline, but if you could be warned it would change everything assoicated with it, including all of the bloodline spells.
And also possibly you entire spell list and spells in your repertoire if change to a bloodline with a different magic tradition.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I get the assumption, but where does it say that? Right now, nothing in RAW or RAI suggests that you cant retrain Bloodline spells.
Is there something in the errata I missed or something?
All the text says is that bloodline spells are "learned" automatically. Then somewhere it says "As you gain new spells in your repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned."
Here are the relevant quotes:
Quote: You automatically learn the spells listed here. At 1st level, you gain a cantrip and a 1st-level spell. You learn the other spells on the list as soon as you become able to cast sorcerer spells of that level. Whenever you gain a spell from your bloodline, you also gain a spell slot of that level, which you can use to cast any sorcerer spell, not just the spell granted by your bloodline. For instance, at sorcerer level 3, you’d learn the 2nd-level spell from your bloodline and gain another 2nd-level spell slot to cast any of your sorcerer spells. Quote: As you gain new spells in your repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you level up and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip. You can also swap out spells by retraining during downtime (see page 318).
"Retraining offers a way to alter some of your character options, which can be helpful when you want to grow your character in a new direction or simply change decisions that weren’t as interesting or effective as you expected. The three things you can retrain are feats (except heritage feats), skill proficiencies and increases, and selectable class features (like wizard schools or sorcerer spells known).You cannot retrain your ancestry, background, or class. Usually you must find a teacher to teach you new abilities. The GM will let you know how long it takes, but expect skills and feats to take around a week and class features to take at least a month. Some abilities can be difficult or impossible to retrain (for instance, a sorcerer can retrain her bloodline only in extraordinary circumstances). In general when retraining, you can’t make choices that you couldn’t when first making your character; for instance, you can’t exchange a feat for a different type of feat, a higher-level feat, or one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat." -page 318
The key part of it is the selectable class features and you can't make choices that you could not when first making your character. For instance, say you took the Draconic Bloodline and you wanted to change the 1st spell from 'Fear' to 'Color Spray' you could not, because you never had the option to begin with. (ie you could not just say at level one my bloodline gave me 'Color Spray' instead of 'Fear')
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I am not talking about retraining though. I am talking about the spell swap feature for sorcerers. This is something they can specifically do when they level up.
The rule I have always used is specific beats general. The specific swapping rule states I can swap "learned" spells. A previous section claims bloodline spells are "learned."
As an aside, one could argue it even allows swapping bloodline spells through retraining since it mentions it in that specific rule as well.
The retraining rules mention retraining spells learn because they are a selectable class feature. However you did not select the spell learned through the bloodline. It would be like saying a Bard can retrain "Dirge of Doom" because its a cantrip and the retraining mentions cantrips, therefore now the feat "Dirge of Doom" gives my Bard "Light".
"As you gain new spells in your repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you level up and learn new spells, you can SWAP OUT one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip. You can ALSO SWAP OUT spells by retraining during downtime (see page 318)". The ability itself mentions the retraining rules in the ability to swap out spells, the only specific difference between this ability and retraining is that this ability lets you do it instantly.
Besides, if you had the ability to swap out bloodline spells then what would be the point of making a bloodline spell list in the 1st place? True you may get access to one or two spells outside your bloodlines casting tradition, but a majority of the spells you get are things you could learn anyways.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
You are inferring a bit there. RAW right now, you can swap them out as the specific rule for swapping is clearly different than the general rule for retraining. If they would have called swapping a "faster retrain" you might have a point but they explicitly did not.
RAI is questionable here. As a DM, I would lean on allowing it unless the language were cleaned up. I can see them allowing swaps considering how sorc must learn heightened spells at higher levels and cantrips can be swapped out with feats like adapted spell (which make no specific mention of disallowing spells granted by bloodlines).
How are they different minus one you can do instantly? The feature itself use " ...you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you level up and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level." Where do you find those rules for swapping out learned spells? On page 318, in the retraining rules, which the feature mentions. Then what's the point of the feature? It lets you do it instantly. Its giving a bonus, not creating another ability.
As far as comparing the spell granted by Adapted Spell, to a Spell granted by a Bloodline Spell, there is one key difference. Adapted Spell lets you choose what spell you are going to gain from it, meaning, just like all the other non-bloodline spells at your disposable, you have the option to pick what spell you get. Bloodline {a class feature} does not give you that option.
Lets make a more apt comparison. My sorcerer has decided to take the Bard Dedication feat. He then took 'Basic Muse Whispers" and then the "Advanced Muse Whispers" so he could get the "Dirge of Doom" feat and gain the 'Dirge of Doom' cantrip. Later on he levels up, and can now can swap a spell if he likes. However, just like with bloodline spells, he can not use it to switch out 'Dirge of Doom' because Dirge of Doom offers no other cantrip options. When you gain that feat, it just gives you Dirge of Doom, you can't say I want another spell when you get it. Similarly, he cannot use it to trade out a Bloodline spell, because the ability that grants them that spell offers no other replacement.
Plus, this still leads to the question if you do have the ability to swap out those bloodline spells to whatever you want, what is the point of have a list of spells that your bloodline grants you?
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see the rules for a sorc swapping out spells on 318. To me, thats retraining. I see the swapping rules on 128 in the section titled "Swapping Spells in Your Repertoire".
At least its clear to me that no language prevents this. Maybe it should. Maybe it shouldnt. I am not clear on RAI. But RAW, it is currently the way the game works.
Im going to leave it there. Hopefully a dev can address this in the FAQ section of an update or something.
BTW, I hope to see means to expand the (often "off-list") thematic Bloodline spells, maybe with a Feat adding 2nd batch of bloodline spells.
Agree to disagree, by my interpterion of RAW page 318 prevents you from doing this, you belief its different.
Though, given your interpterion of the rules, would the Sorcerer in my previous post then be able to use Page 128 to change the cantrip given by "Dirge of Doom" to say "Detect Magic"?
Siro wrote: Agree to disagree, by my interpterion of RAW page 318 prevents you from doing this, you belief its different.
Though, given your interpterion of the rules, would the Sorcerer in my previous post then be able to use Page 128 to change the cantrip given by "Dirge of Doom" to say "Detect Magic"?
Possibly. Dirge of Doom is gained through dedication and related feats in your example. Thus, you would need to refer to any retraining/swapping rules specific to that. If none are given, you revert to general retraining rules. In which case, no.
The rules on 128 are specific to spells added to the Sorcerer from Sorcerer class levels (which seem to apply to bloodline spells) and relate to a specific instance of use (a Sorc gaining levels).
Again, specific beats general. However, if specific isnt given then general wins out.
Alright, just wanted to know, because you had brought up Adapted Spell {a racial Feat} in combination with Bloodline spells.
Although page 128 just says spells learned, it never states from where, just you can change one of you learned spells, and 'Dirge of Doom' is a learned spell. So no need to go to page 318 for that.
Its RAI and RAW the Sorc repetoire since its IN the sorc repetoire section and states repetoire. I think we are done now, yes?
Yes and the "Dirge of Dooom" feat states= You learn the dirge of doom composition cantrip (see page 216), which frightens your enemies.
Guess what, learned spells get added to your repertoire.
So, just pointing out how that ruling that ignores pg 318 can work. Now I am done :p
When you take Bard dedication, it explicitly gives you ITS OWN spell repertoire.
Quote: You gain a spell repertoire with... Bye.
Data Lore wrote: When you take Bard dedication, it explicitly gives you ITS OWN spell repertoire.
Quote: You gain a spell repertoire with... Bye.
And again you still haven't tied "Swapping Spells in Your Repertoire" to a specific repertoire, only that it a sorcerer ability. There is nothing in the ability that states otherwise, the only requirement is you have leveled up, and you are swapping a spell learned. And as you had so said, unless there is something specifically mentioning that ability on Page 182 then it works by RAW. It would be like saying those Bardic cantrips you get with the dedication feat would not work with the Imperial bloodline power "ancestral surge" or the "Reach Spell" feat, because it a repertoire of a different class.
Which is what I'm trying to get at. Guess what, there is no other option to replace Dirge of Doom, because the feat itself only gives the one choice. You choices under Dirge of Doom to Replace Dirge of Doom is Dirge of Doom, and Dirge of Doom.
Similarly, you choices is the same with bloodline spells as you only have the one option. For example with the Draconic bloodline you only get the level 1 Fear spell. If you are going to replace it with another Level 1 Draconic Bloodline spell, you can choose Fear, Fear, or Fear.
I hoping you understand what I'm getting at, and how page 318 applies to this. And on a more bigger level, if there is a problem with how bloodline spells are handled, now is the time to experience them, so you can submit that feed back, and improve the class before the official release. The problem is, if people are playing, what would be a homebrew version of the class, the issues are never reported, and they are never then fixed.
Because I do find Bloodline spell rules stifling. But rules as written Sorcerers have to deal with it, there is no option to change. Which, hopefully if enough players report this as a problem, a change will be made.
Alright see ya, good luck with asking questions in the future.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Specific trumps general. RAW I see a strong case for allowing swapping bloodline spells. I see a weak case against it. RAI is less clear. Without a FAQ I’d let it happen. Plus, Sorxerers need a little love now and then.
I'm a little late to the party so I'll just leave this here:
"At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels."
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
I'm fairly certain that line came out of the 1st edition rules, not out of the playtest rules.
Interesting enough. It appears that Bloodlines GRANT spells, and the spells are GRANTED and are considered Learned. With that in mind, they might be eligible for being traded out in the future. Note, the level they get it, I'm fairly certain they couldn't swap it out immediately, but the next level they learn a spell. As a learned spell, maybe you could do it with 318, but I'm not certain.
It is clear that in 1st edition they made it clearly impossible to do this. In 2nd edition, they did not make any clear indication, meaning they took it out. May have still been intended. They may have edited it out thinking it obvious and unnecessary. I'm pretty sure one reason to have bloodline spells is that certain sorcerer abilities can only be used with bloodline spells. If you retrain it away, you just lost the ability to use it with that new spell. Also, I don't believe all bloodline spells necessarily come from the spell list specific to the sorcerer. So you might be losing access to an specific spell that comes from an alternate list. If they don't intend for the spells to be able to be swapped, they should change how they are worded, so that it is clear they can't be swapped, or that they are added to the repertoire as if they are always considered known. (something to indicate they are 'known' not learned)
And I looked through the update and the playtest rulebook, and didn't find the explicit prohibition, like was in the first edition. Of course we haven't seen the final version of 2nd edition, but at least based on playtest rules, it seems like they may have allowed it in the playtest.
Recent threads in Classes
|
