Hey guys, I'm looking to take a character from level 1 to 20 for an upcoming campaign. Conceptually, my character will develop into a Neutral Good martial Druid that spends most of the day as a Dire Tiger. I've already spoken to the GM about scaling the Dire Tiger up and down depending on the power level of the Wild shape I'm using so as to remain consistent thematically.
Also because I wish to remain in Wild Shape for so long, I'm leaning towards taking the majority of my levels in Druid. His main method of attack will be pouncing and grappling his foes. This leads to some questions in build optimization.
1)As the Druid is 3/4 BAB AND my main method of engagement in combat will be pre-buffing followed all out melee, will my to hit be adequate?
2)How do I optimize my grapple and number of attacks? I will use the Dire Tiger's natural attacks with Grab to start all grapples. This provides a +4 to start and maintain grapples.The following are options I've researched. Are they worth? Any other options I don't know of?
a. The Brutal Pugilist archetype for the Barbarian is an option for reduced grapple penalties and increased CMB, but I'd need to take more levels in Barbarian than intended.
b.The Barbarian rage Power "Raging Grappler" provides damage on starting a grapple and the ability to put the opponent prone for additional penalties.
c. Should I be looking to pick up Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple - for the bonus to CMB and the second grapple check (damage)?
3) What do the monk levels add? Is it just WIS to AC and Improved Unarmed Strike in conjunction with Feral Combat Training for access to Improved Grapple?
Does Flurry of Blows from Monk really help? Dire Tiger already has three primary natural attacks.
4) What type of Druid spells lend toward a melee-centric combat style? I've heard of Strong Jaw and Greater Magic Fang. Never really played a Druid before. Intend on taking Natural Spell for tiger casting.
5) Attribute allocation? Was thinking STR>WIS>CON>DEX>INT>CHA, but maybe CON>WIS?
I'd appreciate any suggestions and level by level builds that would optimize this concept thanks. :)
The Lion Shaman Druid can take the Nobility Domain for access to Divine Favor, which is a +4 attack and damage bonus. Lion Shaman (or call it Tiger Shaman) also adds to effective Wildshape level when in a feline form.
Monk is useful for AC, but Flurry doesn't work with making multiple natural attacks. The Maneuver Master Monk or Tetori Monk drop Flurry for options that might be more useful.
The spell Frostbite is very powerful, but can be problematic to actually use due to action economy and spell-holding rules.
At least two levels of Barbarian can gain the Lesser Fiend Totem Rage Power, which grants a bonus gore attack. Two levels of the Scarred Rager Barbarian allows a form of Rage cycling, which allows things like using Elemental Rage every round or using Reckless Abandon without penalties.
Quickened Thunderstomp could be a truly devastating trick for a high-level combat Druid, since combined with the Fortuitous weapon property and Greater Trip it allows you to use a swift action to knock down a target and then make two AoO's against it as it falls - even in the middle of a pounce.
There are plenty of spells that druids have that will increase combat ability.
You have spells that buff natural weapons (mentioned) spells that increase AC (barkskin) spells that increase attributes (Bull's Strength etc.)
Generally though, I don't think you will need much, especially if you focus on your adaptability rather than just raw might. You don't have to 'pounce - grapple' every opponent to be effective and you aren't investing a whole lot to have that ability. Many characters that want to grapple have to invest a lot and are essentially a one-trick-pony.
You won't have that problem. If you are fighting a huge giant, maybe just focus on melee attacks. When you are fighting a weak wizard, grapple is the way to go. And you have 9 levels of spells for when you really don't think melee of any sort is effective (swarms for example).
To help with this concept, don't forget about mobility. Things like longstrider and airwalk can let you focus your attention where you will be most effective. A bonus to hit the mook guarding the powerful caster is worth less than the ability to bypass the mook and engage the caster directly.
With that in mind, I would strongly suggest you just keep druid as your class and don't multiclass. The abilities you would get are almost certainly going to be weaker than what you give up.
If the focus is on combat, I'd say 1 or maybe 2 levels of multiclassing is easy to do if there's a good reason. Losing a half level or maybe one level of casting is a fair trade for being much stronger at what a character does almost every round.
What about shifter? Just a few levels for swift wild shape while charging with some temp hitpoints and WIS to AC. Two levels.
Yeah, other options are stronger, but we had a level ten dire tiger shifter in play and he was a lot better than the unbuffed druid... buffing time depends in the campaign. If the group gets ambushed often, the shifter wildshaped with extra hitpoints during a Charge with possible Grab while using minor aspect for nice little buffs.
But ask your GM for the not errataed Shifters Edge!
Could someone help me understand Feral Comat Training? Is it necessary for natural attacks to take advantage of Feats like Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple?
If your DM is enforcing alignment restrictions then you may have an issue, Martial Artist Monk Alt class will allow you to combine with Chaotic Barbarian levels.
If the focus is on combat, I'd say 1 or maybe 2 levels of multiclassing is easy to do if there's a good reason. Losing a half level or maybe one level of casting is a fair trade for being much stronger at what a character does almost every round.
Yeah, from what you and Dave Justus have said, I'm thinking of being an Aasimar and choosing Druid Animal Companion with he following progression:
1)Druid (Lion Shaman) 1, Feat: Celestial Servant
2)Unchained Monk 1 (Bonus Feat: Improved Grapple)
3)Blood Rager 1 (Urban Bloodrager / Id Rager (Emotional Focus: Dedication)) Feat: Toughness
4)Druid (Lion Shaman) 2
5) Druid (Lion Shaman) 3 Feat: Natural Spell
6) Druid (Lion Shaman) 4
7) Druid (Lion Shaman) 5 Feat: Planar Wild Shape
If your DM is enforcing alignment restrictions then you may have an issue, Martial Artist Monk Alt class will allow you to combine with Chaotic Barbarian levels.
For that very purpose I've decided to go with a level in Bloodrager instead of Barbarian.
Technically, since I'm only taking 1 level in Monk, I could transition my alignment to Neutral (which I'm planning on doing anyway for RP) to take Barbarian, but Bloodrager has some interesting benefits as a 1 level dip when you take the Urban Bloodrager and Id Rager archetypes.
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Id Rager is certainly very strong. Extra Rage is high-value; one feat will double your rage/day to ~12.
If I was going to build a Dire Tiger Druid like that though, I would drop Bloodrager (or put it off until I had the feat free for Mad Magic) and go for using spells like this:
Pounce Full Attack with Flurry of Maneuvers (Maneuver Master Monk): Pounce up to target -> Quickened Rime Frostbite -> Flurry of Maneuvers free trip attack -> trip attack AoO -> full attack with Frostbite. Rime Frostbite badly cripples CMD as your free trip lands, and then Frostbite damage rolls out on all of your attacks. Between fatigued and entangled from Rime Frostbite and prone, target AC and CMD is totally trashed when full attack lands and grapple applies.
With Magical Lineage or Wayang Spellhunter, Quickened Frostbite is level 4 and Rime Frostbite is level 5, which isn't too bad.
If I'm interpreting this correctly...
Flurry of Maneuvers: At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.
It seems unless I go full monk, the efficacy of Flurry of Maneuvers greatly diminishes.
Multiclass Monks add other BAB to their flurry. So Flurry of Maneuvers grants a free maneuver at full character attack bonus -1 (it's -2, but also +1 because the Monk level is being counted as 1BAB).
If I'm interpreting this correctly...
Flurry of Maneuvers: At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.It seems unless I go full monk, the efficacy of Flurry of Maneuvers greatly diminishes.
Hah, I had the exact same thought when I first saw this ability, too. It seems it's a pretty common misunderstanding.
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Id Rager is certainly very strong. Extra Rage is high-value; one feat will double your rage/day to ~12.
If I was going to build a Dire Tiger Druid like that though, I would drop Bloodrager (or put it off until I had the feat free for Mad Magic) and go for using spells like this:
Pounce Full Attack with Flurry of Maneuvers (Maneuver Master Monk): Pounce up to target -> Quickened Rime Frostbite -> Flurry of Maneuvers free trip attack -> trip attack AoO -> full attack with Frostbite. Rime Frostbite badly cripples CMD as your free trip lands, and then Frostbite damage rolls out on all of your attacks. Between fatigued and entangled from Rime Frostbite and prone, target AC and CMD is totally trashed when full attack lands and grapple applies.
With Magical Lineage or Wayang Spellhunter, Quickened Frostbite is level 4 and Rime Frostbite is level 5, which isn't too bad.
As Flurry of Maneuvers triggers on Full-Attack Actions, RAW it doesn't apply to Pounce. Since Pounce only allows you to make a Full-Attack.
I'd say it's definitely RAI, but you'd probably have to take it up with your GM.
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So I have a skald that does this exact thing. Planer wildshape for smite is great (though better on the skald for the CHA).
If you want rage furious guardian' ulfen guard is a great way to get it. The reason is Raging Grappler (Ex) is an amazing rage power you can grapple and make enemies prone (this is not a trip) which helps you hit and maintain. You also when you 'succeed at a check to start a grapple, you can choose to deal damage as if you had also succeeded at a check to maintain the grapple'. This means you can catch and release with pounce to do a silly amount of damage.
As Flurry of Maneuvers triggers on Full-Attack Actions, RAW it doesn't apply to Pounce. Since Pounce only allows you to make a Full-Attack.
I'd say it's definitely RAI, but you'd probably have to take it up with your GM.
Full Attack and Full Attack Action are used interchangeably. Even stuff like Spell Combat falls under the same use.
Magus, Spell Combat: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
Yes.
Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat.
Magus, Spell Combat: If I use spell combat, how many weapon attacks can I make?
You can make as many weapon attacks as you would normally be able to make if you were making a full attack with that weapon. For example, if you are an 8th-level magus (BAB +6/+1), you could make two weapon attacks when using spell combat.
Full Attack Action = Full Attack = anything involving "full attacks".
Edit: Oh, and if Pounce isn't a "full attack action", then no Haste with pounce.
Full Attack Action = Full Attack = anything involving "full attacks".
Edit: Oh, and if Pounce isn't a "full attack action", then no Haste with pounce.
Haste is a special case, which is explained in the Pounce and Haste FAQ (and the FAQ you quoted yourself).
Since that ruling is only applicable to Haste, RAW you can't pounce and Flurry of Maneuvers.
(unless there's a FAQ I'm missing)
Which is why you should clear it with a GM ahead of time.
Full Attack Action = Full Attack = anything involving "full attacks".
Edit: Oh, and if Pounce isn't a "full attack action", then no Haste with pounce.
Haste is a special case, which is explained in the Pounce and Haste FAQ (and the FAQ you quoted yourself).
Since that ruling is only applicable to Haste, RAW you can't pounce and Flurry of Maneuvers.
(unless there's a FAQ I'm missing)
Which is why you should clear it with a GM ahead of time.
Sigh, very well; ask your GM if he wants to be excruciatingly pedantic, and then have to deal with the implications.
Benefit: You can charge and make a full attack or flurry of blows at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.
No Haste with Pummeling Charge! It's not a Full Attack Action, and there's no FAQ about that specifically!
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
No Flurry of Blows with Pounce! It's not a Full Attack Action, and there's no FAQ about that specifically!
I could probably find a few more.
As far as I can see, they gave up on fretting over "full attack action" wording a long time back, and didn't bother to FAQ every niche case. I think this is exactly the kind of thing they had in mind when they commented about using common sense when interpreting where some FAQs wanted the general rules to go.
Hell, even when they're issuing some of those FAQs they're using "Full Attack" and "Full Attack Action" interchangeably:
You can make as many weapon attacks as you would normally be able to make if you were making a full attack with that weapon.
Oops, didn't say Full Attack Action! Meaningless FAQ!
I get what you're saying.
I agree there's probably no mechanical difference between Full-Attacks/Full-Attack Actions, but Paizo has made clear that the difference is big enough to make several FAQs about it, instead of simply stating that the two terms are interchangeable.
I guess the terms could be a hold-over from spell descriptions of previous editions?
Since there's actually an important distinction between the Attack Action and an Attack, I'm just assuming there is one here, too.
Anyways, I don't want to make this thread derail any more than it already has, especially to defend a stance based on pedantic readings of the rules.
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@ stormRunner47
Don't forget to add Furious to your Amulet of Mighty Fists if you pick up rage!
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I get what you're saying.
I agree there's probably no mechanical difference between Full-Attacks/Full-Attack Actions, but Paizo has made clear that the difference is big enough to make several FAQs about it, instead of simply stating that the two terms are interchangeable.I guess the terms could be a hold-over from spell descriptions of previous editions?
Since there's actually an important distinction between the Attack Action and an Attack, I'm just assuming there is one here, too.
Anyways, I don't want to make this thread derail any more than it already has, especially to defend a stance based on pedantic readings of the rules.
I think there once was a distinction in there, or they weren't sure; but by now it's kind of a dead idea. The issue with Standard Attack Action was a bit different.
Consistency and clarity has rarely been a Paizo strongpoint, but to be fair it's not always easy.
Apologies if I sounded a bit caustic... when I see stuff like that come up my gut reaction is "Oh God, no! Leave them their rules-reading innocence if they still have it!"
I agree there's probably no mechanical difference between Full-Attacks/Full-Attack Actions, but Paizo has made clear that the difference is big enough to make several FAQs about it, instead of simply stating that the two terms are interchangeable.
I'm calling bull shit on this one. The CRB description for the action called "full attack" (under Actions in Combat, CRB pg. 187) also uses the term "full-attack action".
What's worse, there is no subsection of "actions in combat" that's called "full-attack action", meaning if it's different from the action called "full attack", then there are no rules for it, which means you can't use any option that mentions a "full-attack action". If your interpretation stops the game from working, it cannot possibly be right!The attack action isn't called that in the actual section in the book either. It is, however, refered to as "see the attack action on page 182" (under "Attack Roll", CRB pg 178).
Haste needed an FAQ because the original version said "a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.", with no mention of natural or unarmed attacks (that was changed for the 5th printing). Spell Combat needed FAQ because the ability says "full-round action", which is indeed seperate from "full attack"/"full-attack action". Sunder needs FAQ because it says "as part of an attack action", which is different from "full attack"/"full-attack action".
The manyshot FAQ equates "full-attack action" (what the feat says) and "full attack action" (what the FAQ says), showing that the hyphen is irrelevant. The Haste FAQ equates "full attack action" (what the spell says" and "full attack" (what the FAQ says), showing that the word "action" is redundant. From those two FAQs aloe, we can seethat for the PDT, "full-attack action"="full attack". Q.E.D.
Since there's actually an important distinction between the Attack Action and an Attack, I'm just assuming there is one here, too.
1.) "attack" is a general term in normal english, "full attack" isn't. 2.) There are two different explicit rules for a thing called "attack" in the CRB, where there is only one for "full attack".
So I have a skald that does this exact thing. Planer wildshape for smite is great (though better on the skald for the CHA).
If you want rage furious guardian' ulfen guard is a great way to get it. The reason is Raging Grappler (Ex) is an amazing rage power you can grapple and make enemies prone (this is not a trip) which helps you hit and maintain. You also when you 'succeed at a check to start a grapple, you can choose to deal damage as if you had also succeeded at a check to maintain the grapple'. This means you can catch and release with pounce to do a silly amount of damage.
I love the Raging Grappler rage power. It's why I've so debated whether or not to take a second level in Barbarian to get it. I don't know though...the options are thus:
1. I can take that second level of barbarian, but I lose out on some upper end druid spell slots, slow the progress of my existing casting, and lose some advancement of my animal companion.
2. I can replace the level of Monk with a second in Barbarian, but then I lose free Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple, which means I'd probably drop the eventual Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler.
3. I can drop the idea of a full caster Druid and animal companion by making my build Druid 4, Monk X, Barbarian X.
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For me there is optimization and over optimization.
If you have a hasted tiger pouncing while smiting and using raging grappler everything explodes. What do you need the feral combat flurry stuff for. If you need more damage cast empowered frostbite.
This allows you to put the rest of your resources elsewhere like taking boon companion. Now you pounce grapple then the animal pounces vs grappled ac. Nothing lives after that.
When I made a flury monk I was and earth elemental with size change sansetsukon or frostbite flurry depending on the situation. I was never hurting for damage. The build was exceptionally good at setting up flank for +4, leaving enemies prone and control casting in addition to being competitive in damage with dedicated martials.
Druids, all types, can do great damage without a dip. Single level dips put them on a sorcerer spell access path which is fine. I have a 16th level sylvan sorcerer that is plenty strong. Dips make ac easier while giving you stunning fist etc. Or, giving you rage and furious so you can handle DR a little sooner. 5 attacks with pounce with strength, power attack, and frostbite/smite (1d6+2xlvl) and grab get a belt for constrict if you want. This is more than enough damage.
All the options on the table are good I tend to favor spell access and balance as I find I play with lots of fighter and barbarian players and I like to let them have there role even though I can match them in damage when needed.
Thanks for the advice, Grandlounge. I had a tough time understanding your point though. It seems your saying anything is fine, as the build is inherently powerful.
You did mention 5 attacks with pounce. That is true: Bite, Claw, Claw, Rake (Claw, Claw). But if I understand the Grab mechanic and grappling correctly, the moment one of those attacks initiates a grapple, all the rest of those attacks are lost. So effectively, I have only 1 or 2 attacks on initial approach.
Then, on the next turn while grappling, without Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler, a Dire Tiger only has the damage option from maintaining the grapple once and a rake (Claw, Claw). Its nothing to scoff at, but seems pretty average.
Yes, with Planar Wild Shape, I have smite ONCE a day. With a CHA of 10, that doesnt provide an attack bonus though, just a damage bonus = to HD. The current build doesnt have Raging Grappler as that was the question whether to sacrifice spell casting for that.
Frostbite can be a bit funky with the action economy without Quicken.
I also still suffer penalties for the Grappled condition.
Also, as far as i can tell i dont need Feral Combat Training and didnt include it in my build, as Flurry doesnt add much here as I already have three natural attacks. The taking of monk was mostly for the Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple so I could save a few feat slots on my way up to Greater Grapple.
Trying to figure out all these convoluted mechanics.
Without hyper-specialization, grapple really doesn't do all that much a lot of the time. It stops some targets from running away, but then, so does knocking them down; against big, scary targets it may well be useless. Grab already offers many of the benefits of grapple at zero cost, so it may be better to take that freebie and then put your resources into other things. One of the plusses to building for trip is that the level 3 spell Greater Thunderstomp trips in a line and can trip any size creature, so you can trip-maul even massive targets.
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BadBrid has it right. You can specialize in grapple working up to rapid grapple. The point is tie the enemy up and get them out of the fight asap.
The other specializations are the grapple to do damage catch and release (octopus, pouncing cat constrict, and raging grappler style builds). Grapple feats help bonuses but don't help action economy becuase the depend on free actions and full attacks. They have a size limit though you can only grab your size or smaller normally.
Grapple to tie up builds require being able to use rope so you have to check with you gm what forms can do that. These builds get better with hyper specialization using cavalier levels.
Ice Spears is another solid trip spell. The extra Spears give huge bonuses.
Grappling also limits your ability to cast, take aoo and do other thing the contribute to the fight which attack does not.
I'm trying to understand the action economy with this Dire Tiger build. Explain it to me very simply.
1) Opening combat: I'm guessing I pounce with 5 attacks.
But if a grab connects...what happens? I'm grappling now. Do I lose all the subsequent attacks?
Am I supposed to release as a free action? I'd assume even if I immediately release, I still dont get those attacks back.
2) Starting my turn in a grapple: do i take the damage option from mantaining a grapple with rake? or do I do some release shenanigans?
Please help me understand. Thanks
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1)
Attack 1 > Hit > do damage > Grab (start a grapple as a Free Action without provoking an attack of opportunity) > Constrict/raging grappler damage > release (free action)
This can be repeated until you are done attacking. This is the catch a release option.
If you choose to not release the grapple for any of these attacks you and your opponent gain the grappled condition. This does not stop you from attacking except in a situation where you are using a two-handed weapon but that is outside of this example.
2) Here you can do a few things.
2.1) Release the opponent and take a full attack (this would be when you had haste, most likely) and full attack (see 1 above, but no rake)
2.2) Roll to maintain (make them prone with raging grappler) > pick an option (let's say damage)> do grapple damage > make rake attacks > do additional damage like constrict
Happy to answer any other questions.
Thanks, Grandlounge!
Here you can do a few things.
2.1) Release the opponent and take a full attack (this would be when you had haste, most likely) and full attack (see 1 above, but no rake)
2.2) Roll to maintain (make them prone with raging grappler) > pick an option (let's say damage)> do grapple damage > make rake attacks > do additional damage like constrict
Hmmm...so option 2.1 doesnt really require any feats, while...
option 2.2 CAN require quite a few (Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler, Raging Grappler from Barbarian), but does add more control and possibly more damage (3 maintain grapples + rake)
Also, I like the theme of the Dire Tiger (instead of an eventual Giant land squid for optimization). Anyway to get constrict as a tiger? Just Anaconda Coils?
If going with grappling, note that the Maneuver Master's free Flurry of Maneuvers maneuver (I'm so tired of typing maneuver...) can be used to make a free grapple check of any kind, including maintaining grapple, which is damned good.
If going with grappling, note that the Maneuver Master's free Flurry of Maneuvers maneuver (I'm so tired of typing maneuver...) can be used to make a free grapple check of any kind, including maintaining grapple, which is damned good.
The only problem i see with that is the wording:
...as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver...
This seems to disqualify it for use with the feats Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler as those don't utilize a full-attack action.
I'm trying to fit Flurry of Maneuvers into the before mentioned action economy but I'm not coming up with anything... :(
I suppose I see it now. If I do a full attack (Bite, Claw, Claw) and grapple on the last claw, then the Flurry of Maneuver would allow me to maintain the grapple (damage). For an "extra attack." I think.