Preface: I've been playing a sandbox campaign with the same group for about 4 years now. The problem is that the sandbox feels as though it's made of rock rather than sand. The bounty boards never seem to refill, there are large unexplored patches of the map that we can't enter unless we have an expensive "guide." If we try, the dm threatens our demise (tempted to try him on that, but I'm not interested in conflict). He has a few passive quests that don't actually come up, like finding cult activity. Entire months in game and out of game time can go by without combat (not necessarily a bad thing, but the lack of XP is painful). And the dm insists there is stuff to do, and we just have to find it. We've toured every town and did the traditional ask for rumors thing turning up nothing.
I'm good friends with my dm, so I don't want to tell him his campaign feels rigid, dead, and not tailoring to the players. So I want to see what I can do myself. I recently retired my last character that I played for 2 1/2 years and I'm bringing in a Mesmerist. I was thinking of making some backstory where he is obsessed with finding someone else with psychic magic to learn from, so he searches through the uncharted lands. Problem is, say I find the tribe of psychic magic users and my personal quest is now over. Now what? I don't really know what else to do after that, and I don't want to get stuck in the trap of just delivering packages every session (what we do when the group has no idea what they want to do). Any ideas?
I have tried to talk to my dm about how it feels to play the campaign, but we have differing ideas on how to run one. I'm not willing to say his or my ideas are better as I'm sure more creative people would still have fun in his campaign.
TL;DR: Played in a sandbox campaign for 4 years and don't know what to do now. What should I do?
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The problem you describe is not something that you as a player have any control over.
Your options pretty much are:
Communicate (you say you don't want to and you tried).
Quit the Game
Continue as you have been, having as much fun as possible.
I could be wrong, but I expect that retiring one character and starting with a new one will make the situation worse, not better for you.
I will say though that the idea that a character can only ever be interested in things that were in their backstory seems odd to me. Just because you found something you wanted to find when you were young doesn't mean that you won't ever have a goal again. It is your character, you get to choose what you your character finds interesting. Heck, you could decide that your character has become fascinated by the mystery of who is sending all the packages.
I agree that you should talk to your GM. In no uncertain terms they should know all of the thoughts you've typed here. If you're going to stick with the game anyway, remember what sandboxes are always about: personal choice.
So there's areas that are tough to explore? Explore them. There aren't any open plot lines? Make some. Go to the local tavern, talk to the patrons and see what they want done, even if it's just fixing the chicken coop roof.
Everything and anything can be an adventure starter. Pick a skill your PC is good at and start a business or a guild around it. Focus on your character's backstory, but also on the backstories of known associates. As you finish out plot points consider what they naturally point to.
1. you make a mesmerist with a reason to explore; 2. you find a tribe of psychic magic users; 3. return to civilization and demand the rights of the tribe to occupy better lands and join society; 4. take ranks in Profession: Barrister and become a lawyer defending the rights of the tribe; 5. uncover a plot of corruption in the judiciary; 6. quit the corrupt society and begin mining ore and quarrying stone so that you can build a castle to protect tribal lands...
And so on.
One thing that is easy to ignore in a Sandbox type setting is how much of the story is driven by the characters' decisions. If you don't want to deliver packages, don't. Instead, build shrines, construct lairs, make your own dungeons to protect your own treasure, or explore the still unexplored areas regardless of the cost or risk. Be adventurous, and adventure should follow.
If however you honestly have 1. talked to the GM and in no uncertain terms have told them everything you've said here and 2. you've tried to control your own PC's fate and the GM hasn't collaborated with you on creating more adventures, then I think all that's left is to leave the campaign or suggest that the GM quit running for a while since they might be burned out right now.
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The last sandbox game I played in I realized after awhile that my character needed to pursue something more than just "looking for the fabled mcguffin of the ancient culture of insert obscure name here"
So, I created a villain. I don't mean just some guy with an evil alignment. I mean a villain like would be the type of character pulling the strings from behind the scenes in one of my own campaigns. It made the sandbox game far more interesting and rewarding as I ended carving out a section of land and establishing my kingdom there.
In the end I did accomplish my goals but it was satisfying since by the time that happened he was a level 19 character with 3-4 mythic tiers. When it comes to a sandbox game, if you want the world to change then you need to make a character who is out to change the world.
Thanks for the input everyone.
Dave Justus wrote: I could be wrong, but I expect that retiring one character and starting with a new one will make the situation worse, not better for you. I've played the character for a long time and I mainly stopped playing him due to going on a hiatus from Pathfinder in general. When I came back, everyone else had new characters too. I didn't want to be the level 8 in a group of level 4s, and I wanted to try something new anyways.
Dave Justus wrote: Just because you found something you wanted to find when you were young doesn't mean that you won't ever have a goal again The heart of the problem for me is I don't have much initiative/creativity to find a new goal. Which is mostly the reason I made this thread, to get some ideas.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: As you finish out plot points consider what they naturally point to. I appreciate your ideas that you offered. In regards to an area being tough to explore, I can't help but feel the DM is always giving subtle to not so subtle threats he'll kill us if we do things like go through his uncharted territory or try to uncover the secrets as to why his guides are the only ones who can safely traverse through those lands. I think I need to just challenge him on one of those points and see what happens. I tend to get attached to my characters and their lives so I play overly cautious.
When you bring up businesses, there are definitely things I could have done with the last character in that regard. I think I just put them on the backburner because it didn't sound exciting for anyone but me in the party. I'll see about what I can do to bring the rest of the party into it.
I do think both Dave and Mark are right that I should have another conversation with the DM about structure though. I'll just have to figure out how to word it in a not rude sounding way.
LordKailas wrote: It made the sandbox game far more interesting and rewarding as I ended carving out a section of land and establishing my kingdom there. This was the original intention with my last character (he was a underground crime lord), but as the campaign went on, I settled for enjoying the company of the party and not endangering myself and the party. Maybe I should be playing less cautiously :/
Versanus wrote: I should have another conversation with the DM about structure though. I'll just have to figure out how to word it in a not rude sounding way. In my experience, often the most effect way is to frame the issue as a problem you are having, not something they are doing wrong and ask them to help you. The means they aren't defensive and are invested in solving the problem.
For example: "GM, I'm having a tough time finding anything that will really motivate my character. Do you have any ideas for motivation or things that maybe I haven't noticed that you think my character should be interested it?"
Not only will this encourage the GM to reveal existing things that you might have missed, but will also encourage him to add in more hooks (and maybe make them more obvious) and hopefully apply that to the entire party.
More broadly: "GM, Your world is really complex and I've had a lot of fun exploring it, but it is so complex that sometimes I feel lost and like I am missing plot hooks and opportunities for adventure. Do you have any ideas on how my character and the rest of the party could successfully find these hooks. For example, I really was interested in the whole cult thing, but we haven't found anything about them for ages. I don't want spoilers or how-to guides, but general advice on the sort of things our characters should do to be better at finding these hooks would be appreciated."
Your GM might give you some good advise and let you understand how he thinks characters should ack to find things, but more importantly it will get him to think about how a character can find the hooks he has crafted into his world (and doubtless is dying for you to find) and perhaps think about making them easier or presenting them in more ways. In any event, since you aren't attacking or complaining he is less likely to become defensive and since you are asking him to help, he will probably be interested in actively making a solution work.
One thing though, you need to not get defensive yourself. When he says something like "You need to ask people questions" if you respond "We made 30 gather information rolls and didn't get anything." The conversation is likely to devolve. Keep it positive, with responses like "So you think we don't ask around enough. Do you think you could explain to me how to get better at that?" Keep asking for help whenever possible, and of course part and parcel with this is generally try to want that help and make the changes you can in your own behavior that will make you fit in better with how the world works as your GM sees it.
Cast Commune, start asking Yes or No questions about where you should go next.
Or, find a Fortune Teller (and tip her well) and ask her good questions that might progress your story or provide clues to where you ought to be going.
In any sandbox you need to figure out if there is a plot you have to do, or if you are free to make your own. It sounds like the GM actually wants you to make your own because you aren't be dragged around by a bunch of NPC that are all trying to get you to do something.
What you are experiencing is the negative side of an open world. There is no set plot and if you don't have goals nothing happens. So set some goals. Both short term, and long term goals.
The easy short term goal is to get more powerful, or get rich. Neither sets you a specific path but they are easy to understand and lead you to seriously look at your surroundings and see what you can do to achieve those goals. Usually step by step.
But set yourself a crazy long term goal. Like ruling a kingdom, conquering the world, or my personal favorite opening a quiet little cabaret where you've forced various monsters to be the staff and entertainment. I'm not talking orcs and goblins, I'm talking about a blushing Planetar, an ancient red dragon, a lamaia matriarch, and a banshee dancing in a review while nymphs and succubi wait tables and fight over who collects the most tips. And maybe a Balor as the bouncer or bartender. This is you putting on a show of power for the world and your own amusement. After all, the GM isn't going to amuse you so you have to make your own...
I had a GM decide he was going to run a game in Forgotten Realms using Pathfinder rules. He told me ahead of time that he was going to start with a linear plot to get the characters out into the world, then leave things open for us to explore. We had my character, a wizard with a focus on crafting constructs and a homunculus familiar, a druid who really liked wildshaping and a ranger who was really good with a bow.
Frankly, I think I broke the poor man.
After the linear plot was done we didn't really have any direction as a party so since we couldn't come up with anything better I just asked if we could all start using our skills, specifically a lot of Knowledge checks. What's the history of the local area, what's the deal with that ruined tower on the coast, what notable fantastic flora/fauna is around, who are the notable personalities, are there local tribes/clans/groups of evil humanoids, and so on.
We asked so many questions in such a short time, followed up by descriptions of extended skill usage in Diplomacy, Heal, and even Perform: Oratory to ingratiate ourselves at the one village he gave us nearby, that the GM literally just shut down. He didn't say anything for a couple of minutes, just rubbed his face in agitation. He then ended the session early saying he wasn't prepped for all of this and that he'd get back to us with answers later - that's when the campaign ended.
My point isn't that you should overwhelm your GM. I'm also not suggesting that GM's generally freeze when peppered with questions about their open world.
I'm just saying that maybe, if you're stuck at some point, just run down your skills and see what your character CAN do out of combat, then just start trying it. Even if your PC is a fighter with 2 skills - Climb and Swim, ask your GM if there's a legendary mountain to climb or a channel to swim.
Sometimes this can be daunting because you don't know if the rest of your fellow players will buy into your skill use. In the case of a fighter asking to climb a mountain, if the rest of your party consists of a desert druid, a cavalier riding a war dog and a Dex-based alchemist this might be a tough sell. Even still, there has to be some point of synergy between your PCs' skills.
In fact V for Versanus, that's a good way to look at pitching the business ideas too. One school of thought is for you to start a business solely for your character but if you're worried about player buy in from the rest of the group consider what you can all do as a team.
In the game I'm currently running I've got a ratfolk investigator who crafts alchemical stuff, a half-elf swamp druid with herbal gardens, a skinwalker bloodrager/brawler who has decent survival skills, and a half-orc barbarian who cuts trees and drinks in her spare time. If they were to start a business all together I'd encourage some kind of outdoorsy venture, perhaps gardens and a grove of trees, with a kind of general store/fort/lodge type place set apart from local society.
The fort could be built with local timber (barbarian; Profession: Woodcutter), feature a tavern and general store, and overlook nearby swamps which offer a bounty of rare flora/fauna (druid and bloodrager/brawler; Profession: Herbalist, Survival, other skills). Of course, attached to the general store, perhaps in the undercroft beneath the fort, would be an alchemy lab; the store's provisions would be augmented with acid, smokesticks, tanglefoot bags, etc (investigator; Craft: Alchemy).
I guess in the end I'm just suggesting that if you ever get stuck but the game is non-linear with an open world concept, see what your character can make or create. Perhaps review what your own character can know or do in their immediate surroundings. Use the skills you've put ranks in to expand your understanding of your GM's setting.
Dave Justus wrote: In my experience, often the most effect way is to frame the issue as a problem you are having, not something they are doing wrong and ask them to help you. The means they aren't defensive and are invested in solving the problem. I really like that idea, thanks! I wasn't sure how I was going to approach the conversation without sounding accusatory. I'm also glad you brought up the "30 gather info rolls" thing, because that is almost assuredly going to come up. I'll try to keep that positive frame of mind when speaking to him.
Meirril wrote: But set yourself a crazy long term goal. Like ruling a kingdom, conquering the world, or my personal favorite opening a quiet little cabaret where you've forced various monsters to be the staff and entertainment. Haha! I'll think about trying to set myself a ridiculous goal to keep from going hollow three sessions into the campaign. Technically my last character had this, but my party members would have obstructed it. Ultimately, they would either try to stop me or be side characters in a story where I would be a rather boring main character just trying to set up contacts around the continent.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: I'm just saying that maybe, if you're stuck at some point, just run down your skills and see what your character CAN do out of combat, then just start trying it. I'll give that a shot. Normally, I think going down that route would be a dud, but being a Mesmerist, I have all kinds of new skill unlocks to play with. I'm sure I can have a little bit of fun with Hypnotism and Dowsing. Also, condolences to your GM. I could see myself doing that in a fit of irritation to prove some sort of shallow point.
My last character was also fit to start a business of some sort. Our party had me as the face and natural charlatan and a warforge who could create other warforges. We were going to start a business building and selling "dumb" warforges to do manual labor for construction, cart pulling, random tasks, etc.. We eventually decided against it because none of us really wanted to just play a business simulator every week and at least one player said they wouldn't enjoy themselves at all in that scenario. So I'm mostly trying to avoid business ideas that don't have a new adventure each day.
Versanus wrote: Technically my last character had this, but my party members would have obstructed it. I will add one general piece of advice. In a Sandbox more than any other type of adventure, it is really important that the party be unified. If your character wants X, why would he join with a party that would keep him from it?
Having a party goal, even if it something as simple as 'we want to get rich', and making sure that while characters may have their own motivations as well, they are all going to be interested in the goal of the party is crucial.
Having no set direction to go for adventure, and having no set objective for the party is pretty much a guarantee that you will flail around and accomplish nothing, and the GM can't even really create good hooks, because while you are trying to rid the world of the undead scourge, your companion is really just interest exploring the wild woodland and your other friend is trying to create a powerful thieves guild in the city. A hook just becomes a source of contention in that environment.
Talk to the other players and figure out your group goal and purpose and make sure your character fits with that, if, as it sounds, your group hasn't had one, maybe your character can be built to supply it and focus the rest of the group on that.
It is a team game. Goals of the team are generally more important that personal goals when it comes to success or failure (being measured here as having fun.)
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