The original Spellcasting power should only grant you the Level 1 Column on the Chart.
At odd levels caster classes should get a Class Feat. Each caster class should have a Feat that grants them access to the next Level Column on the Chart (must be at least level 3 for second column, must be at least level 5 for third column, etc.).
This allows casters to Archetype more dynamically, since right now they lack Class Feats compared to other classes. This gives them options, they can increase the spells they can cast, grab a different feat in their own class, or grab a feat from their Archetype if they have one.
"Have a class feat. Do you want to do Cool S@#* like everyone else, or do you want your class ability?"
No. I do not agree.
Disagree. It is not an option if there is only one correct choice.
Also, I can already see the threads of martials complaining that casters get more class feats / can archetype better if this happened.
We have enough feat taxes in the game already. We need less of them, not more.
If you had made the suggestion regarding expert/master/legendary spellcasting(that only DC based casters care for), i'd have gone for that as i would see the merit to that.
This would be awful. What would be the 'class features' that a caster even gives? Would it be the worse weapon/armor/perception/saves proficiency or perhaps the worse HP per level?
How about we just give them back their 1st, 12th, and 16th level feats instead of using them to bump casting proficiency (something already factored into monster save bumps and are required to even remotely land a spell).
Charon Onozuka wrote: Disagree. It is not an option if there is only one correct choice.
Also, I can already see the threads of martials complaining that casters get more class feats / can archetype better if this happened.
I do not agree that there is only one correct choice. Folks used to delay casting level in the old system, so there must have occasionally been a reasonable "other" choice. In my opinion, there are reasonable character reasons you might delay casting by a level in order to pick up something else from your class or from an archetype.
Yeah, good point about the other classes also having the same problem with Archetyping. Maybe some of the abilities they get 3,5,7,9 etc. should also be Class Feats.
Or perhaps you are correct and the Spellcasting power as a Class Feat allows too many options. However, with the Archetype system as presented, it is my opinion that it is mandatory every class actually get the EXACT same number of Class Feats and likely even at the exact same levels. If that simply means converting the increased casting proficiency into a Class Feat so all classes have 11, rather than my proposed 16, that works for me.
How did they delay without awful house rules?
Dragonborn3 wrote: How did they delay without awful house rules? My Cleric 10/ Brawler 1 delayed progression by 1 level, mostly as flavor.
My Druid 7/UnchMonk 2 delayed progression by 2 levels, mostly because flurry of tails makes me giggle (although they also hit hard).
I have seen a ton of multi class builds in PF1 that choose to delay spell casting progression by one or 2 levels.
My proposal simply opens that possibility back up to casters. I wouldn't expect very many folks to delay longer that those one or two levels, and my proposal would even allow them to catch back up later in the build.
Too much versatility in Archetyping? Maybe. But I do not intend that it should just be for casters, I agree that martial should have more flexibility with their class abilities.
That said, I think keeping the system simpler is a worthy goal, so I can agree with the idea that we should just add the three missing class feats back to casters and make the current abilities at those levels class feats that can opted into.
I feel this is missing the point (consciously or unconsciously) of Pathfinder's Class system.
In fact you CAN have a choice to spend a Feat on spell progression.
You do that via a Spellcasting Class Archetype. If you actually have the Class, the assumption is you are "all in" on the core schtick.
It is not a Classless game. If you want infinite granularity in abilties, you should play a Classless game. That is what they do.
This is a Class-based game.
This would go against the class design that you always are good at your main thing.
There is an option for delayed spellcasting: Start with another class and multiclass into a caster.
Edit: Although I agree that they could the make the spell proficiency bumps into class feats like they did with the higher bloodline powers.
On the spell proficiency, I think it should just be rolled into class and not treated as a Feat, it's just part of the baseline math. They don't even need to create new tier of Class Feats for that level if they don't want to, you can pick up earlier ones you didn't get before, or Archetype Feats etc. But the proficiency isn't a real class feature on it's own, that justifies displacing a Class Feat, either immediately or delaying to pick up the proficiency later.
What would be the point? At every opportunity almost any player is going to take the option to get a higher spell level. Especially since the spells don't scale as the caster levels they way they used to. It would only be an option for a nearly infinitesimal portion of the player base, and would require adding a second feat at every level that casters already get a feat and a new spell level.
Now I suppose I understand that it feels like that casters get access to all kinds of abilities every other level on top of the feats they get at those levels as well.
Quandary wrote: I feel this is missing the point (consciously or unconsciously) of Pathfinder's Class system.
In fact you CAN have a choice to spend a Feat on spell progression.
You do that via a Spellcasting Class Archetype. If you actually have the Class, the assumption is you are "all in" on the core schtick.
It is not a Classless game. If you want infinite granularity in abilties, you should play a Classless game. That is what they do.
This is a Class-based game.
Mechanically, you are correct. I do often build my characters out several levels ahead of time.
However, some characters I build organically and some that I did plan out have something big enough happen in game that my plan makes no sense.
If my Cleric loses her faith, the current system has me out of luck playing that character anymore. I am a Cleric so I just keep getting better and better at things I don't believe in anymore (except I don't, of course, because it is very likely I no longer follow my old deity's path and get no powers at all). Every two levels I can try to pick up something useful from an Archetype. I could switch faiths, if that made sense for the character, but it usually does not. This is basically character death and fallen religious men turning into mercenaries is a classic stereotype that has no way to be realized.
If my elven wizard who took weapon familiarity gets a string of lucky hits with her bow at level 4 and I thought that was cool, I could decide to more fully explore her bow use. After picking up Weapon Elegance at level 5 (and 3rd level spells), I can get Fighter or Ranger Dedication at 6, Point Blank Shot or Hunted Shot at level 8 (having 4th levels spells from level 7), and maybe Double Shot or Targeted Hunter at level 10 (having 5th levels spells from level 9). I find that progression extremely unsatisfying. Level 6 garner’s no Bow benefit at all with Fighter and 1/day bonus via Hunt Target. 3 levels after first deciding I’d like to do cool bow stuff I finally get one cool bow trick and then have to wait two more levels to get some other bow trick.
With my suggestion I could take Elegance and Dedication at level 5, but gain no third level spells. At level 6 I could pick up PBS or HS, and still only be able to cast 2nd level spells. At level 7 I could pickup my 3rd level spells. At level 8 I could opt to grab my 4th level spells, catching back up on spell progression or choose to continue the bow path. I’d just like to be able to switch up the order of when I get abilities a little bit sometimes. You still have to meet all pre-reqs, so your never getting anything early and you still have to use the class feat resource, so you are never getting anything extra.
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Minor quibble. You don't have to be a divine spellcaster to be an ex-religious mercenary.
I agree with the rest. PF1 multiclassing was a good way to 'leave' a class behind.
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