
Kamelguru |

The ninja IS better than the rogue. By a mile.
The ability to detect magical traps is usually hardly ever put into use, and as the ninja can find mundane ones, you won't miss it terribly.
Evasion is nice, but not a must-have unless your GM loves throwing AoE spells your way.
The weapon selection and the ki powers are so much better than anything the rogue has to offer.
He is, in a nutshell, what the warblade was to the 3.5 fighter in my mind. Just better at everything that matters, with additional unique powers.

sgtrocknroll |
Are traps and the ability to dumb cha the only reason to select a rogue over a ninja?
The ninja ki pool (smoke bombs, invisibility, mirror image) looks a lot better than what the rogue gets.
The reason to take rogue over ninja is the ninja is Timmified Cheese, designed for powergamers.
Just on Principle, play a rogue.

gnomersy |
Yeah pretty much what everyone else said. The Rogue's only real advantage is the ability to find magic traps and you can always make the bard or ranger or maybe barbarian take care of those.
As far as combat effectiveness the Ninja is just a good version of the Rogue. And for skill monkeying other than the traps they're equal.
Really at this point the only thing the Rogue has going for it is that it's not a ninja which is to say it only has fluff on it's side because maybe you don't want to be a ninja.

wraithstrike |

carn wrote:Are traps and the ability to dumb cha the only reason to select a rogue over a ninja?
The ninja ki pool (smoke bombs, invisibility, mirror image) looks a lot better than what the rogue gets.
The reason to take rogue over ninja is the ninja is Timmified Cheese, designed for powergamers.
Just on Principle, play a rogue.
Cheese? The class is ok, but not all that impressive, even with its invisibility ability that comes into play later in the game.

Quandary |

Scout/Thug/Knifemaster
I don't like Ninja though for many reasons...
Weapon Profs (same applies to Samurai),
Compare CHA Ki pool to Rogue Talent WIS Ki Pool,
so even though Ninjas can just get everything Rogues can,
it does not go both ways since Rogue Ki pool is worse.
In home games I would rule that Ninja Invisibility does NOT bypass See Invisibility, nor does Disappearing Dust.

chaoseffect |

The only reason to play a rogue at all is to handle traps. Ninja don't do that any better than alchemists. If you want to be a sneaky backstabber and don't need the trapfinding class feature be a vivisectionist. If you want to be sneaky backstabber with trapfinding you're still stuck with rogue.
Vivisectionist has a lot of things going for it (like extracts and mutagens), but I really think you're undervaluing rogue talents/ninja tricks. Invisibility/greater invisibility, Assassination, Underhanded, and Shadow Clone are some of my favorites.

Richard Leonhart |

the rogue is the kobold of classes, it is weaker, but that's why some pick it.
Ninja is just the stealthy class thats about as powerful as the other regular classes, well at least as good as the monk.
Edit:@chaoseffect, the alchemist can have eternal improved invisibility, and 1 lvl dip into ninja can give him underhanded.

chaoseffect |

I forgot about Eternal Potion and that would be great if allowed, but I can't help but feel no DM would let me actually have it, though it may not be as OP as it seems as I have no idea the common capabilities of things that a party would be facing at level 16.
Totally play it as the Invisible Man though, bandages and all (given greater invisibility didn't just make all of them invisible as well ;o).

Atarlost |
Atarlost wrote:The only reason to play a rogue at all is to handle traps. Ninja don't do that any better than alchemists. If you want to be a sneaky backstabber and don't need the trapfinding class feature be a vivisectionist. If you want to be sneaky backstabber with trapfinding you're still stuck with rogue.Vivisectionist has a lot of things going for it (like extracts and mutagens), but I really think you're undervaluing rogue talents/ninja tricks. Invisibility/greater invisibility, Assassination, Underhanded, and Shadow Clone are some of my favorites.
Invisibility and greater are on the Alchemist list. Advantage nobody.
Assassination requires you to observe the target undetected. Unless you're playing solo you're not going to pull that off much without leaving your party behind all the time.
Underhanded only works in the surprise round if you have a concealed weapon, which in turn requires quickdraw. Surprise rounds don't allow full round actions, so even if you managed to start the surprise round in position to attack only one sneak attack will benefit from this.
Shadow Clone might be nice, but you're still pointing to something that duplicates (badly since it only gives 1d4 images: even a minimum level wand would give 1d4+1, and the real second level spell keeps on scaling up) a second level spell when comparing to a six level pseudo-caster.
If these are the cream of rogue talents and ninja tricks I'm not impressed.

![]() |

Are traps and the ability to dumb cha the only reason to select a rogue over a ninja?
Mostly because the official rules in the d20 system nerf traps into being pointless wastes of time rather than anything approaching actual danger.
Ninja should have just been adding some more rogue talents. Maybe a minor archetype for people who feel the need to put "Ninja" on their character sheet officially.