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| 17 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So tonight in our campaign a party member took nearly 80% of damage of his total from a Clay Golem.
The party was mostly 9th level (8 people) and when we were done and went to heal we looked at the full explanation of the ability and were stunned.
No naturally healing. Magical healing needed a DC 26 Caster Level check to succeed.
After much rule mongering we came to this realization. Supernatural healing would automatically fail (cannot make a spellcaster level check on it) and Spell and Spell like would fail 85% of the time due to the constraints on it.
Supernatural - Since a SU affect cannot be dispelled but was technically still magic as per the rules of Anti-Magic, we decide that SU healing could not overcome this ability. (The Golem ability reads "No Magical Healing without Caster Level Check" Anti-Magic states "Supernatural Abilities do not work" therefore Supernatural is Magical)
Extraordinary - This would fall under the realm of Natural Healing and therefore be irrelevant. (Clay Golems are Trolls worst nightmare)
Spell and Spell Like - For a level 9 caster, a flat 85% failure rate. Nothing in the rules to boost it.
Now the question of the night... Why the hell is this ability on a CR 10 mob?
This ability is disgusting and does not seem to fit any of the normal rules. If it is a curse, why isn't it disspellable? If the CL to create a golem was 11 why is it at 26 instead of 21 (I find DC 15+CL difficult creation rules irrelevant to what the DCs against its abilities are).
Did we work around it? Yes. Was the work around sound? ZNo, the DM had to make an on the spot ruling to make sure the game continued (We had our Wizard with Break Enchantment roll to remove the 'curse' and he only did so with the help of Luck domain Cleric giving a re-roll).
Why am I posting this if we worked around it? Because -
A - If somebody is seeing something we didn't I would love to hear it.
B - If not, this thing needs errata badly. (i.e. DC 21 Caster Level, Saving Throw or allowing Remove Curse, Break Enchantment to work on it.)
We were fortunate that we were playing a city campaign with a larger time/resource pool (and a DM who saw the predicament this ability but him in) but if this had happened in a dungeon it would be a game killer as it would leave a party no recourse but to retreat and spend several days expending heals hoping to roll extremely well so they can get back to adventuring.
Yes, it's a brutal ability. :-)
Paying a high level cleric to cast Heal would do the trick.
Yes, it's a brutal ability. :-)
Paying a high level cleric to cast Heal would do the trick.
I'm sure those are laying around everywhere.
I'm sure those are laying around everywhere.Yes, it's a brutal ability. :-)
Paying a high level cleric to cast Heal would do the trick.
Absolutely not. Hence the "brutal ability" comment. :-)
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Taking a look at it. With Break Enchantment, you would have to worry about the following:
This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is equal to the DC of the curse.
What are you using as the "caster level" of the Curse wounds ability? I would personally use the CL to create the golem and have it work out this way:
a) Cast Break Enchantment and make a caster level check vs 22 (11 + the CL of 11) and then cast the healing.
or
b) Cast the healing and make a caster level check of 26 (in case you have limited time to cast before having to run for example).
Note, either way, a level 9 Cleric is going to have to either roll a 13 or a 17 to make it. It just gives the cleric with more time, a better chance of healing them.
Now on that note, I believe that Golems should be an ugly fight for anyone. Just think of the Cursed Wounds as being a little bit of the golem's clay gets stuck in the wound that it creates. that way another idea would be to allow a "Move Earth" spell to remove the clay on 1 person, and thus allow normal healing.
Unfortunately, a curse is a specific type of affliction in PF. While the cursed wounds ability has the word "curse" in it, it's not quite a curse. Otherwise it would have the standard template for an affliction in it (onset, duration, etc.). It's also an extraordinary ability -- curses seem magical in nature, but I guess that's not a requirement.
I wouldn't let break enchantment or remove curse work on it.
There are a few creative ways to deal with golems. Since your party was very strong and had plenty of resources to draw upon, magical healing with a DC 26 caster check isn't that unreasonable. Your clerics (I assume you had multiple clerics) probably would be unable to heal it all instantly, but over a couple of days it would probably go away.
We got 4 of those beauties in our PF conversion of STAP City of Broken Idols... I definitely let the Paladin make CL rolls to use Lay on Hands. It's not a spell-like ability, but it sounds irrational that fully healing-oriented powers connected to positive energy (like Lay on Hands and Channel Energy) are automatically ruled out whilst a paltry Cure Light Wounds has a chance to work.
Following the letter of the rules may lead to absurd situations and this would be one of them. Channel Energy should be a more "raw" form of energy, and hence more likely to bypass any kind of wound, cursed or not, than a spell.
Your clerics (I assume you had multiple clerics) probably would be unable to heal it all instantly, but over a couple of days it would probably go away.
It doesn't go away after a couple of days, and even if it did you don't always have that luxury.
When my group ran a playtest using all the new classes from the upcoming APG we face 3 clay golems and an iron golem (we were testing out 14th level). The iron golem was the easiest of the bunch to deal with. After the fight we had to progress further into the city (as other constructs began to run amok) and we almost didn't make it because half of our healing spells were wasted on overcoming the caster level check!
I myself have asked for clarification on the clay golem's ability and haven't had a response. For our games we've ruled that a remove curse will work (it is called "cursed" wounds after all) with the appropriate DC 22 caster check.
I suggest other people do the same.
man, as both a player and a GM I think that this goes beyond making an encounter difficult into the realm of counter-productive story-killing annoyance. Sure it might be cool to saddle the barbarian of the party with a minor wound that won't go away naturally, or use it in another story context, but an encounter in a dungeon leading to the BBEG this could easily get out of hand and you end up with the adventure completely reversing course, and the party members spending the rest of game trying to get rid of their cursed wounds. Seems like this ability should have been toned down or added as a sidebar for running a specific game with the clay golem as the BBEG.
There are many ways to handle mindless opponents, but being mindless yourself against them isn't the most optimal.
Umm, yeah. Thanks? No, not thanks.
[ignore]james maissen[/ignore]
I don't take flaming well.
For some reason i was remembering reading somewhere that (su) did not roll SR? if that was the case wouldn't it bypass the CL check?
For some reason i was remembering reading somewhere that (su) did not roll SR? if that was the case wouldn't it bypass the CL check?
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.
You are correct sir. Now we just need some clarification on whether or not Su can bypass caster level checks. Is there any Su healing out there? It would seem that temporary hp is your best option, but not everyone has access to such things all the time. Getting surprised by a Clay Golem is rough no matter how you look at it.
Move earth and earthquake are the best spells against it and who the heck ever has those at the ready? Disintegrate is so sub-par in this situation that you'll only use it to counter the haste effect (a 6th level spell to counter a 3rd level effect?).
Overall the Clay Golem may be tougher than it's CR indicates. Hard to say though since different groups will have different results. In our group is wasn't until the third round when the inquisitor was wielding an adamantine shovel that any real damage started to get through (3rd round of smiting judgment on a 14th level inquisitor).
Is there any Su healing out there?Channel Energy.
For what it's worth, I'm of the opinion that (Su) does indeed have to make a CL check.
However, on the flip side, were channel energy to work without the roll you can heal the damage and not be in the OP's situation... Aka the crippled barbarian with 8 hp for the rest of the dungeon. Yet the affliction would still be a problem until it was countered. So penalizing yes, destructively crippling and OMG rediculous not as much?
Can you imagine if that barbarian had raged and fought deep into negative HP land, expecting the cleric to be able to heal him up before he dies?
How much damage did your guy take? I mean the clay golem only has +19 to attack. A good fighter can easily have 30 AC by the time you're fighting him. Each hit is, on average, 18 points of damage.
And a cleric would have a 20% chance of success, not 15 (having to roll a 17-20). One easy option would be to rule that Supernatural healing is not Magical. But either way, just burst away. Lets say he took 60 points of cursed wound damage. Cleric will heal with a CLW an average of 9 HP. Just burn through all his 1st level spells, and a couple bursts, and the person should be full.
Yeah it's more healing intensive, but for a CR10 this guy is kind of a chump. I don't think the CR is off, and honestly the first thing I thought when I saw the cursed wounds is "wow, actual consequences for being damaged, awesome!"
How much damage did your guy take? I mean the clay golem only has +19 to attack. A good fighter can easily have 30 AC by the time you're fighting him. Each hit is, on average, 18 points of damage.
And a cleric would have a 20% chance of success, not 15 (having to roll a 17-20). One easy option would be to rule that Supernatural healing is not Magical. But either way, just burst away. Lets say he took 60 points of cursed wound damage. Cleric will heal with a CLW an average of 9 HP. Just burn through all his 1st level spells, and a couple bursts, and the person should be full.
Yeah it's more healing intensive, but for a CR10 this guy is kind of a chump. I don't think the CR is off, and honestly the first thing I thought when I saw the cursed wounds is "wow, actual consequences for being damaged, awesome!"
An AC of 30 is possible for a fighter, but he is likely not the only person soaking hits, and the golem in this case hits the fighter on a roll of 11 or more, 55% chance of doing essentially UNHEALABLE damage. Placed at the wrong point in adventure, a clay golem could actually be more frustration than its worth.
How much damage did your guy take? I mean the clay golem only has +19 to attack. A good fighter can easily have 30 AC by the time you're fighting him.
I think, if you perform some math, that means that the golem would have to roll just an 11 to hit.
How much damage did your guy take? I mean the clay golem only has +19 to attack. A good fighter can easily have 30 AC by the time you're fighting him.I think, if you perform some math, that means that the golem would have to roll just an 11 to hit.
When did I say otherwise?
Having to roll 11+ means only hitting 50% of the time.
How much damage did your guy take? I mean the clay golem only has +19 to attack. A good fighter can easily have 30 AC by the time you're fighting him.I think, if you perform some math, that means that the golem would have to roll just an 11 to hit.When did I say otherwise?
Having to roll 11+ means only hitting 50% of the time.
Yeah, I guess we just have different odds that consider acceptable. For me, 45% of being hit is not that great, considering that each hit is likely unhealable in the short term.
How much damage did your guy take? I mean the clay golem only has +19 to attack. A good fighter can easily have 30 AC by the time you're fighting him.I think, if you perform some math, that means that the golem would have to roll just an 11 to hit.When did I say otherwise?
Having to roll 11+ means only hitting 50% of the time.
50% chance of getting hit with damage that is unhealable worse than 50% of the time.
50% chance of getting hit with damage that is unhealable worse than 50% of the time.How much damage did your guy take? I mean the clay golem only has +19 to attack. A good fighter can easily have 30 AC by the time you're fighting him.I think, if you perform some math, that means that the golem would have to roll just an 11 to hit.When did I say otherwise?
Having to roll 11+ means only hitting 50% of the time.
Riiiiight...? Are you trying to make some point? It's an icky ability, but its not game breaking. And for a CR 10, that's his only ability. His average damage is 2/5 of an average monster of his CR according to the monster creation chart. His +hit is also lower than many similarly physical encounters of the same CR.
Clearly the right tactic against a Clay Golem is to play it defensively. Fight defensively, don't let him get a full attack, etc. Furthermore, because of its of its horrible saves, something like Grease could completely disable it.
In the end, the only thing this monster does is make your party use healing resources, and then only if you fight it head on.
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No naturally healing. Magical healing needed a DC 26 Caster Level check to succeed.After much rule mongering we came to this realization. Supernatural healing would automatically fail (cannot make a spellcaster level check on it) and Spell and Spell like would fail 85% of the time due to the constraints on it.
In 3.5, supernatural abilities do explicitly have a caster level and so you can make a CL check with them. I can't seem to find this wording in PF but it makes sense to bring the ruling over, since Su abilities are magic.
Is the Cursed Wound ability limited to a clay golem's natural attacks, or would it also apply to manufactured weapon attacks made by the golem (such as if I modified him to have "bastard sword hands" via the rules from Ultimate Magic)?