Barbarian: Suggested fixes

[Flames of Chaos]

After reading the first thoughts of others on this class, I lost the love for what was probably my go-to non-spellcaster class for PF1: the barbarian.

Here's why:

Fast movement tied to rage: why? makes no sense

Rage: Arbitrary limits on use of the Rage, despite *EVERYTHING* requiring you to be actively in Rage. Sooo you get to use your features for exactly 3 rounds. Wait 1 round minimum to use again... *blinks rapidly*....

Rage powers nerfed from PF1 or add measures that are overly complicated:
Why's everything a totem?
Dragon Totem Breath is once per hour... how is a "feat" attack so brokenly strong that it has to wait every hundred rounds to be used?! Even "save or die" spells from PF1 weren't that gated, and they were level 6+ spells.

So enough of my ranting about problems, here's a few fixes:

Fast Movement: Remove the "rage" wording. Or better yet: "You are filled with a zeal for battle or a deep passion for life. As such, you naturally run faster. Increase your movement speed by 10 feet." If this is too much of a power for level 1-4, make it a level 4+ feat.

Rage:
If your goal is to blatantly avoid the "x uses per day", no matter one's opinion on the logic of such, then here's a quick fix:
Your rage lasts for 1 minute, or until you fall unconscious. You can end the rage early, but doing so imposes -1 penalty Strength, Dexterity and Constitution checks. This penalty is untyped."

However, if you are keeping a number of "rounds", here's a quick easy fix:
Replace the 3 rounds line of text with "You are considered to be proficient in the use of your rage, as someone who is trained in the use of martial skills. As such, your duration is equal to double your proficiency plus your constitution modifier. At third level, this proficiency increases to Expert, and again to Master at 7th. At 11th, you are Legendary in the use of rage." This would mean at 1st level, , using the Human Fighter block of starting stats from page 16-19, you would be able to rage for 5 rounds (1*2 = 2 + 3 = 5), and you would get 2 additional rounds at 2nd level. At 3rd, you would go to "Expert", and thus go up to 11 (LVL 3 + 1 Expert = 4, 4*2 = 8, 8+3 = 11). Again you would add 2 rounds until 7th, wherein the total would be "Master" level, so 21, unless you bumped the Con score to 18, which would then make your rages 22. Add 2 more rounds each level until 11th, where you would hit the cap in proficiency bumps to this total, although you could add to your con score if you wanted. Thus 11th would net you a total of 28 plus your con of 18 or 19 to total out for 32 rounds. Finally at 20th and assuming you kept adding to your con, you would have 22 CON or +6 to equal out for 52 rounds.

I'm sure the wording could be made a bit easier, but this would give you enough rounds to comfortably get through the encounter without being "in time out" without being knocked unconscious. Fatigue would probably still play a role in that if you got KO'd you'd have to wait a round or so, but there you go.

Oh, and for Dragon Totem Breath:

Replace frequency with "Once per combat" or if that's too much like 4e for others, then you could probably get away with "once per 3 rounds" or "once per 1D4 rounds" as in PF1.

If this seems cumbersome, then by all means tell me how this would work better - I am wanting to play a Barbarian again, but not how the playtest as written currently works.

Good night and good luck!

[Rameth]

I also had a few concerns with the Barbarian as well. I put up my own Barbarian changes I thought would benefit the class. The increase of Rage rounds sounds like a good idea, though I wouldn't make it so long at low levels. Maybe make it everytime you gain a bonus to Rage damage you are also able to Rage 1 more round before becoming Fatigued?

The only problem I see with making the Rage longer is that you won't have access to your temporary hit points as often. If a battle lasts 5 rounds and we assume you Rage in round 1 you gain level+Con temp hit points. On round 4 you becoming fatigued which means you can probably attack/attack and stride away so you won't get hit with that big AC penalty. Then next round you Rage again and regain those temp hit points. Theonger your Rage lasts the less you'll be able to regain them. Is it a good trade off? I'm not sure yet I haven't seen much Barbarian play, my players Lvl 1 Barbarian Raged once the whole first adventure cause apparently he forgot lol.

My biggest problem was that the Barbarian just wasn't doing enough damage. I believe they should make their + to damage a little higher as right now it's a little underwhelming it seems. Again this may not be true as I haven't seen them in play so much.

[Elleth]

Rameth wrote:

My biggest problem was that the Barbarian just wasn't doing enough damage. I believe they should make their + to damage a little higher as right now it's a little underwhelming it seems. Again this may not be true as I haven't seen them in play so much.

Just curious, but at what level was the damage not enough? At level 1 at least the party barbarian was a terrifying force of death that sudden charged out of nowhere to murder and maim. This apparently inexorable elf lopping heads off left right and centre, propped up by 3 rounds being a really long time at level 1.

[Rameth]

Elleth wrote:

Rameth wrote:

My biggest problem was that the Barbarian just wasn't doing enough damage. I believe they should make their + to damage a little higher as right now it's a little underwhelming it seems. Again this may not be true as I haven't seen them in play so much.

Just curious, but at what level was the damage not enough? At level 1 at least the party barbarian was a terrifying force of death that sudden charged out of nowhere to murder and maim. This apparently inexorable elf lopping heads off left right and centre, propped up by 3 rounds being a really long time at level 1.

Like I said this may not be the case as it's a bit of theory crafting and it's based of the fights I had my own Barbarian go through.

The Barbarian starts at a lower hit bonus than both the Fighter and the Ranger (arguably the Ranger only gets better 2nd and 3rd attacks but still). At 3rd level the Ranger gets a +1 over the Barbarian and the Fighter gets a +2 over the Barbarian, plus the Ranger and Fighter have better to hit options, Favored Aim, Double Slice and so on. The Barbarian just gets +3 damage.

Now in this system being able to hit is important and being able to Crit is even more important. So the Barbarian is constantly 1 behind the Ranger and 2 behind the Fighter. That means his ability to hit is less than the other two Martial focused classes. So because it's harder for him to hit it's harder for him to do that extra damage. Let alone get those crits for some nasty damage. Like comparing the Barbarian to the Ranger and Fighter at first level.

Take a Ranger with an Animal Companion and a Greatsword. He can flank with his own AC and still get an attack at his highest bonus. So he's essentially hitting with a +7 and his AC is hitting with a +5 in the first round of combat (in ideal circumstances of course) The Fighter is hitting with a +6/+1/-4, he can either Power Attack on his first attack and get a +1 second attack or he can Furious Focus his second attack and if it misses get a third attack at +1 again (arguably better at higher levels). The Barbarian can't do anything. His ability to hit is much lower than the other classes. So if he can't hit he can't add that extra damage.

Now after all of that I'm still not sure I'm completely correct. But if they're hitting less often then they need some extra damage to make up for it. So I thunk the easiest solution is to raise the Rage damage a little bit.

[Flames of Chaos]

I must have blanked out the bit about the damage dump for the sake of my sanity... barbarians always were the stone cannons of whatever edition prior to this: they hit hard, can take a few hits more than the average guy, but at risk of eventually getting in WAAAAYY over their heads.

That lack of hitting is quite horrifying... paizo, please address this post-haste!

[Seannoss]

One of my players made a barbarian for DD pt 2. I'll have to say his trade off of +3 damage for -1 AC didn't seem all that powerful or useful.

He did go the intimidation route which was nice as it gave him more options in combat.

[Draco18s]

Rameth wrote:

The only problem I see with making the Rage longer is that you won't have access to your temporary hit points as often.

Give them fewer temp HP that refreshes every round of rage.

[Voss]

Fewer temp HP? The barb is lucky if their temp HP soak half the damage of a single hit from a level appropriate enemy.

Really the barbarian is in a bad place when it comes to offence and defense- they just don't stack up well against things in the bestiary.

And while the 3-round rage is more friendly then obsessively tracking rage rounds and power uses, it doesn't mesh well with quite a few feats and abilities.

[Draco18s]

"0 less" might be the right number.
The point is to just refresh it every round.

[User_Undefined]

There are two ideas I had for barbarians. The first is to allow the rage bonus to damage to apply to weapons with the thrown property in addition to the current list. This would somewhat help with the ranged issue they currently have by allowing even the less powerful weapons like darts to be more effective. The other change would be allowing barbarians to add half their rage bonus to attacks. If this happened, here's what their bonus hit chance would look like compared to a fighter.

Level____Barb (while raging)____Fighter
1____________+1___________________+1 with non-exotic weapons
3____________+1___________________+2 with chosen weapon group
7____________+2___________________+2 with weapon group
13___________+3 (weapon fury)_____+3 with weapon group
15___________+4___________________+3 with weapon group
19___________+4___________________+3 with all non-exotic weapons

If weapon fury was removed, then that would place the barbarian just behind the fighter in terms of innate accuracy when they're raging.

There's also a part of me that wants rage to grant an athletic bonus, but that's because I've played 5e which gives barbarians advantage (roll 2 d20, keep the highest) on strength checks while raging. 5e is also why I'd like to see the barbarian's resistance show up earlier than level 9 (5e raging resistance is a flat half damage from bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing attacks with extra damage types included based on the subclass you pick, and it's given at level 1).

[Brew Bird]

I would really like the language of the Barbarian to be cleaned up a bit. The Animal Rage feat says "when you rage, you do X", which almost implies it happens automatically when you use the rage action. It appears to take an action, though, and the rage trait already covers the "can only be used while raging" clause.

[Snickersnax]

I'd like to see the Barbarian rage last until the fight is over. (ie the raging stops when he doesn't hit something or take damage for one round). And then is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the rage, during which he can't rage. Temp hp refresh every round.

This:

1) Eliminates the silliness of an 18 second tantrum followed by 6 seconds of clarity followed by another 18 second tantrum
2) Feels more like how real rage works
3) Keeps access to "unlimited" number of rages per day
4) Makes for flavorful rage interactions where Barbarians are mechanically encouraged to continue to beat dying creatures until they are dead or attack themselves to maintain their rage.

[Draco18s]

Snickersnax wrote:

And then is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the rage, during which he can't rage.

This is functionally equivalent to "and then no downside." Because if they can rage as long as they want until combat's over, then combat's over and the duration of the fatigue is irrelevant.

In PF1 this was limited by the maximum number of rage-rounds per day.

[Snickersnax]

Draco18s wrote:

Snickersnax wrote:

And then is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the rage, during which he can't rage.

This is functionally equivalent to "and then no downside." Because if they can rage as long as they want until combat's over, then combat's over and the duration of the fatigue is irrelevant.

In PF1 this was limited by the maximum number of rage-rounds per day.

I'm fine with "and then <usually> no downside." sometimes combats finish and another one starts up again.

[Rysky]

Snickersnax wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

Snickersnax wrote:

And then is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the rage, during which he can't rage.

This is functionally equivalent to "and then no downside." Because if they can rage as long as they want until combat's over, then combat's over and the duration of the fatigue is irrelevant.

In PF1 this was limited by the maximum number of rage-rounds per day.

I'm fine with "and then <usually> no downside." sometimes combats finish and another one starts up again.

Not often enough for this to actually be a downside.

[Gaterie]

Can someone explain why a downside is required?

During rage, the barbarian deals as much damages as a feat-less fighter and dies faster. Why does this require a downside?

[Rysky]

Gaterie wrote:

Can someone explain why a downside is required?

During rage, the barbarian deals as much damages as a feat-less fighter and dies faster. Why does this require a downside?

From what I played that wasn't really true, the Fighters in the group hit more often, but my Barbarian pretty much one shot everything when she did hit. Also the renewing HP made her stand up alongside the Fighters who stayed up due to armor.

Speaking from a thematic standpoint having rage always be on would be boring. The whole point of rage is that it is rage, it's something that gets "clicked" and turns on.

[Gaterie]

Let me guess: it was level 1, where you're only 1 point behind the fighter in attack, your Con modifier represents 20% of your HP and most level 0 monsters are killed just by your Str bonus?

[Snickersnax]

Rysky wrote:

Snickersnax wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

Snickersnax wrote:

And then is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the rage, during which he can't rage.

This is functionally equivalent to "and then no downside." Because if they can rage as long as they want until combat's over, then combat's over and the duration of the fatigue is irrelevant.

In PF1 this was limited by the maximum number of rage-rounds per day.

I'm fine with "and then <usually> no downside." sometimes combats finish and another one starts up again.

Not often enough for this to actually be a downside.

If you had to have a downside how about this:

When the rage is over you lose 1 hit point for every round you were raging. If this would take to to zero or fewer hit points you automatically stabilize.

This would let the barbarian "collapse" after the rage. Which seems to fit the trope. Even the Hulk collapses when his rage is over. What he doesn't do is spend every 4th round gasping and wheezing for breath. Actually that's what people do when they are fighting and NOT raging.

[Rysky]

Gaterie wrote:

Let me guess: it was level 1, where you're only 1 point behind the fighter in attack, your Con modifier represents 20% of your HP and most level 0 monsters are killed just by your Str bonus?

We were playing level 1s, but, what?

Edit: misread that as 50% at first. For the bolded part the monsters we fought took more than the Strength bonus, again my Barbarian 1 shot them while the Fighters took 2-3 hits to bring them down.

[Rysky]

Snickersnax wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Snickersnax wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

Snickersnax wrote:

And then is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the rage, during which he can't rage.

This is functionally equivalent to "and then no downside." Because if they can rage as long as they want until combat's over, then combat's over and the duration of the fatigue is irrelevant.

In PF1 this was limited by the maximum number of rage-rounds per day.

I'm fine with "and then <usually> no downside." sometimes combats finish and another one starts up again.

Not often enough for this to actually be a downside.

If you had to have a downside how about this:

When the rage is over you lose 1 hit point for every round you were raging. If this would take to to zero or fewer hit points you automatically stabilize.

This would let the barbarian "collapse" after the rage. Which seems to fit the trope. Even the Hulk collapses when his rage is over. What he doesn't do is spend every 4th round gasping and wheezing for breath. Actually that's what people do when they are fighting and NOT raging.

Pass. That sounds like an even less fun version of 3rd DnD/1st Pathfinder's.

You still wear yourself out in a rage. You have to breathe for a sec. And you're not crippled when you're fatigued, your defenses just just go down.

Playing it felt more like an attack pattern from a boss monster. Which was cool.

[Gaterie]

Rysky wrote:

Gaterie wrote:

Let me guess: it was level 1, where you're only 1 point behind the fighter in attack, your Con modifier represents 20% of your HP and most level 0 monsters are killed just by your Str bonus?

We were playing level 1s, but, what?

Edit: misread that as 50% at first. For the bolded part the monsters we fought took more than the Strength bonus, again my Barbarian 1 shot them while the Fighters took 2-3 hits to bring them down.

...

Level 1 Fighter damages: 1d12+4
Level 1 Barbarian damages: 1d12+6

I can't find any range of HP where 1d12+6 is an auto one-shot while 1d12+4 requires 2 or even 3 shots.

[Rysky]

Silly me, the Fighters were using longswords, the experience would have been similar had we all been using the same weapons.

[Gaterie]

Greatsword isn't a barbarian class ability.

[dnoisette]

Brew Bird wrote:

I would really like the language of the Barbarian to be cleaned up a bit. The Animal Rage feat says "when you rage, you do X", which almost implies it happens automatically when you use the rage action. It appears to take an action, though, and the rage trait already covers the "can only be used while raging" clause.

I believe the intent here is to have the "Rage" class feature replaced with "Animal Rage".

If you select the Animal Rage feat, you lose the "Rage" class feature and it is replaced with "Animal Rage".
You still have to use an action to activate it though, hence the action icon next to the feat's title.
Unfortunately, it does mean that you are stuck with having to go into animal form everytime you rage once you select this feat.

This is especially bad now that Dragon Transformation has been changed to use your innate AC and attack bonus (and it can be dismissed with an action even while raging).
Yes, I am aware that these two feats have very different level requirements but the fact that there is no better feat than Animal Form for an Animal Totem Barbarian that wants to shapechange is disappointing.
The feat chain ends with Predator's Pounce, a good feat on its own but the Animal Totem does not provide any meaningful impact to a Barbarian's gameplay the way that the Dragon Totem does.
You do not get any special attacks or resistances, only increased speed (and no Fly speed, ofc) and extra sense.
It's a shame and I hope the Animal Totem will get some more love in the future.

[Pramxnim]

Animal Rage and Dragon Transformation are both actions with the Rage trait. That means that you need to spend an action while raging to use them. It's a pretty bad drain on your action economy, but Barbarian's get Mighty Rage at level 10 that lets you use a Rage action as a free action when you enter rage.

Before level 10, if you want to use Animal Rage, you'd go:

Rage -> Animal Rage, costing 2 actions

At level 10 and afterward, you have the option to do:

Rage -> Free action that you can spend to use Animal Rage

[The Once and Future Kai]

Rameth wrote:

My biggest problem was that the Barbarian just wasn't doing enough damage. I believe they should make their + to damage a little higher as right now it's a little underwhelming it seems. Again this may not be true as I haven't seen them in play so much.

This was the issue at my table as well. The Fighter in the group drastically outperformed the Barbarian. I'm okay with the Fighter having better defenses and accuracy but they actually outdamaged the Barbarian as well. That tiny extra bit of accuracy resulted in more criticals*...which resulted in significantly more damage.

*I didn't count but it was definitely more than I expected.

[Xalemich]

Pramxnim wrote:

Animal Rage and Dragon Transformation are both actions with the Rage trait. [...]

I see the same problem when looking at an ability like Raging Courage (1 Action) - It seems to require Rage to be used as it get's activated, but it's effect only trigger when the next Rage occurs, and it requires an action to be used, so it isn't a passive effect... I actually have no idea when it is allowed to be used...