Abundant Casting & Scorching Ray

[halfdragon62]

I'm having some trouble explaining to a player why the Archmage path ability, "Abundant Casting" does not work with "Scorching Ray"

According to the path ability description for Abundant Casting, "Whenever you cast a spell that specifically targets a limited number of targets (such as “one creature/level” or “one or more creatures”), add your tier to the number of targets the spell can affect."

My player has taken this to mean that he can fire off 2 additional bursts of Scorching Ray (thanks to his 2 mythic tiers), making for a total of 9 rays fired.

My understanding is that this shouldn't work as the spell isn't "targeting" a specific number of creatures, but manifesting bolts of fire that the caster can direct at will. For Abundant Casting to work (again, by my reading), a spell has to list in its descriptors something like "1 target/Caster level", and Scorching Ray doesn't have this descriptor.

I've tried to explain this to my player, but he is confused by my explanation as he is still "targeting" creatures with his scorching rays.

So, Hivemind, can you please advise how I can more clearly explain my reasoning? Or else clarify if my reading of the ability and spell is incorrect?

[Name Violation]

halfdragon62 wrote:

I'm having some trouble explaining to a player why the Archmage path ability, "Abundant Casting" does not work with "Scorching Ray"

According to the path ability description for Abundant Casting, "Whenever you cast a spell that specifically targets a limited number of targets (such as “one creature/level” or “one or more creatures”), add your tier to the number of targets the spell can affect."

My player has taken this to mean that he can fire off 2 additional bursts of Scorching Ray (thanks to his 2 mythic tiers), making for a total of 9 rays fired.

My understanding is that this shouldn't work as the spell isn't "targeting" a specific number of creatures, but manifesting bolts of fire that the caster can direct at will. For Abundant Casting to work (again, by my reading), a spell has to list in its descriptors something like "1 target/Caster level", and Scorching Ray doesn't have this descriptor.

I've tried to explain this to my player, but he is confused by my explanation as he is still "targeting" creatures with his scorching rays.

So, Hivemind, can you please advise how I can more clearly explain my reasoning? Or else clarify if my reading of the ability and spell is incorrect?

example:

Burning Arc
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one primary target plus one additional target/3 levels (each of which must be within 15 ft. of the primary target)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes

example 2

haste
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a shaving of licorice root)

EFFECT

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

Scorching Ray
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one or more rays
Duration instantaneous

explain the difference

[Trekkie90909]

Rays aren't targets---in order to apply it to scorching ray, the rays created by the spell would have to be the targets of the spell. Which he could do... but nothing would happen and it'd work the same as without abundant casting since there's already a 1:1 ratio of rays to targets in that instance.

[zza ni]

halfdragon62 wrote:

I'm having some trouble explaining to a player why the Archmage path ability, "Abundant Casting" does not work with "Scorching Ray"

According to the path ability description for Abundant Casting, "Whenever you cast a spell that specifically targets a limited number of targets (such as “one creature/level” or “one or more creatures”), add your tier to the number of targets the spell can affect."

My player has taken this to mean that he can fire off 2 additional bursts of Scorching Ray (thanks to his 2 mythic tiers), making for a total of 9 rays fired.

just wondering, how did it come up to 9 rays? the max of rays for this spell is 3 normally. so even with +2 for the tiers he have it should be 5 total.

[Trekkie90909]

I would assume the player is arguing he gets two extra targets per ray (since each ray has one target), so over three rays that'd be 9 hits. Which of course would be wrong, since you'd apply the ability once to the spell, not to its component effects, but if you're going for a RAW reading it doesn't apply anyways.