Calculating Skills issue

[nogoodscallywag]

I created a level 1 fighter and wanted to double check my math calculations on Herolab Online. Everything seems correct except my Thievery calculation. I believe I should be receiving a penalty of -6, not -5 as HL seems to show:

Unnamed Hero
Human fighter 1
Good, Human, Humanoid, Lawful
Percep +3
--------------------
Defense HP 21 Hero Points 1 Res 1
--------------------
TAC 14; AC 16
Fort +5; Ref +3; Will +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18 (+4); Dex 12 (+1); Con 16 (+3); Int 10 (+0); Wis 12 (+1); Cha 10 (+0)
Skills Acrobatics -3, Athletics +0, Intimidation +1, Warfare Lore +1
Feats Haughty Obstinacy, Power Attack
Languages Common
Other Abilities attack of opportunity
Other Gear breastplate, heavy steel shield, longsword, shortbow

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

+1 level
-2 untrained
+1 dex
-4 breastplate
-1 shield
----------
-5 total

[nogoodscallywag]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

+1 level

-2 untrained
+1 dex
-4 breastplate
-1 shield
----------
-5 total

this can't be right. All of my other skills add up correctly. I'm not adding +1 level to any of my other skills.

[nogoodscallywag]

I think paizo needs to redo how the skill points are shown added up on the sheet.

I've got down under my "Prof" a value of 1...because the rules state that Trained skills give your level as a modifier...

So it looks like this:

ACROBATICs...-3. SIG (checked) DEX +1 T (checked) PROF +1 ARMOR -5

[nogoodscallywag]

Here's what I have on paper:

ARCANA -2. no INT bonus+(-2) PROF
ATHLETICS 0. +4 STR+1 PROF + (-5) armor
INTIMIDATION 1. +1 Prof.
LORE +1. +1 Prof
MEDICINE -1. +1 WIS+ (-2) Prof
STEALTH -4. +1 DEX + (-2) Prof + (-5) armor
^^^ HERO LAB ACTUALLY SAYS THIS SHOULD BE -5
Herolab agrees with all the above stats...

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Well, your level definitely figures in; it's baked into proficiency. I mean, I listed it as "+1 level, -2 untrained" but I could equally have listed it as "-1 untrained at 1st level."

Your Acrobatics I would calculate as

+1 level
+0 trained
+1 dex
-4 breastplate
-1 shield
---------------
-3 total

So it looks like you and I and Herolab agree on that.
Your Arcana should be

+1 level
-2 untrained
+0 int
------------------
-1 total

Dunno how you (or Herolab) are getting a final total of -2 there. If you're putting 1 as your prof for trained skills, you should be putting -1 as your prof for untrained skills.

[nogoodscallywag]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Well, your level definitely figures in; it's baked into proficiency. I mean, I listed it as "+1 level, -2 untrained" but I could equally have listed it as "-1 untrained at 1st level."

Your Acrobatics I would calculate as

+1 level
+0 trained
+1 dex
-4 breastplate
-1 shield
---------------
-3 total

So it looks like you and I and Herolab agree on that.
Your Arcana should be

+1 level
-2 untrained
+0 int
------------------
-1 total

Dunno how you (or Herolab) are getting a final total of -2 there. If you're putting 1 as your prof for trained skills, you should be putting -1 as your prof for untrained skills.

I realize there is inconsistency with the rules whcih is why this doesn't make any sense. Per the rulebook, pg. 9, it says

"you’re untrained.
If you’ve been trained in the statistic or item, your
proficiency modifier is equal to your level."

So looking at the bolded line above in your formula, I should have +1 trained, not +0.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Combine the bolded line with the line above it; I separated the level component of proficiency from the, um, proficiency part.

[Draco18s]

nogoodscallywag wrote:

I realize there is inconsistency with the rules whcih is why this doesn't make any sense. Per the rulebook, pg. 9, it says

"you’re untrained.
If you’ve been trained in the statistic or item, your
proficiency modifier is equal to your level."

So looking at the bolded line above in your formula, I should have +1 trained, not +0.

I don't think its inconsistent anywhere. "Proficiency" as a value is "Your level plus a number."

U: Your proficiency modifier is equal to your level minus 2.
T: your proficiency modifier is equal to your level.
E: Your proficiency modifier is equal to your level plus 1.
M: Your proficiency modifier is equal to your character level plus 2.
L: Your proficiency modifier is equal to your level plus 3.

(I don't know why Master uses "your character level" when the rest don't).

From page 291:

Quote:

Proficiency Rank | Modifier

Untrained | Your level – 2
Trained | Your level
Expert | Your level + 1
Master | Your level + 2
Legendary | Your level + 3

[nogoodscallywag]

So that would seem like if I'm a Master at a skill, then I'd only be getting +1 prof/level modifier, right?

Despite the rules saying:

"At a master rank, you’ve achieved world-class
proficiency in the statistic or item. Your proficiency
modifier is equal to your character level plus 2."

[Draco18s]

You get "whatever your level is right now...plus 2." There no +1/level.

If you're level 10 and are a master, your proficiency is +12
If you're level 12 and are legendary, your proficiency is +15

[nogoodscallywag]

I meant for right now at first level...let's say I I'm a master at 1st level (i know not able to but just for this sake)...

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

nogoodscallywag wrote:

I meant for right now at first level...let's say I I'm a master at 1st level (i know not able to but just for this sake)...

Then your proficiency modifier = 1 (level) + 2 (master) = +3.

[Atalius]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy never fails. Long live the rules master of PF1.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Atalius wrote:

Fuzzy-Wuzzy never fails. Long live the rules master of PF1.

LOL don't I wish :-P

Thanks for the morale boost though!