Every time I post this it messes up because I'm going to fast and am not checking my work, because I'm upset. Sorry everyone if there's double posts everywhere, but I need this resolved right now or soon or I will not be able to sleep. I'm sure that I'm wrong, I just can't see it. Please someone just tell me I'm stupid, to calm down and how I messed up this calculation. There is no way the basic math of PF2e is this fundamentally wrong. I won't be offended, someone just please tell me I can't math or I don't know how to play or something as long as you show the math about how the saving throws are more even than what I calculated.
For reference, I don't know the rules that well. I did all the research and reading as I was formulating this post, which is in response to the posters you see quoted. I'm sorry I'm stupid, I get like this sometimes, where my brain locks up and I can't see my errors. So please someone just calmly explain my mistake to me.
AshVandal wrote: Megistone wrote: wakedown wrote: How deep have folks looked at fireball?
We haven't had a ton of enthusiasm here on wizards or sorcerers, mostly because of a perception (which may be true or false) that mid-level doesn't look "as fun anymore".
I don't think the PF1e core Fireball was overpowered. It was later on when folks picked up metamagic rods of maximize, empower and/or selective and were cross-blooded and what-not that fireball was problematic on the power scale.
Where does theorycrafting on PF2e fireball stand? (I imagine concrete playtesting is pretty limited at this stage)
A Fireball starts at 6d6 and doesn't move if you don't heighten the spell; in exchange its DC does scale with level, and it didn't in PF1. This isn't exactly true as far as I can tell, but I'm only armchair theorycrafting at this point so I may be wrong. Anyways:
Spell DC technically scales with level, but Saving Throws also scale with level, so the result is a functional wash within standard difficulty encounters. Spell DC does scale up at certain break-points, specifically at levels 12, 16, and 19, when the caster (looking specifically at wizard because that's all I care about) gets their proficiency increases, assuming targets never gain a related saving throw increase. Otherwise the proficiency bonus is static throughout those level ranges. Which means a mage will have DC = (Die Roll) + (Int Mod) + (Level) from level 1-11. The comparison is hard because the systems are different and the specific target you chose to attack may make a huge difference, but I chose something easy for me to reference.
Compare Wizard casting fireball, Caster Level 11, 18 Int (+4 mod), against 3 fighters, levels 8, 11, 14, with Dex 12 (+1 Mod), no encumbrance or dex penalities; no relevant modifiers (feats, magic items, etc) on either side
PF1e:
Fireball: 10 (base DC) + 4 (int mod) + 3 (spell level) = DC 17
PF2e:
Fireball: 11 (trained proficiency [level +0], lvl 11) + 4 (int mod) = DC 15
PF1e:
Fighter 8: Die roll +2 (base reflex mod) + 1 (dex mod) = 14 (min die roll to succeed)
Fighter 11: Die roll + 3 (base reflex mod) +1 (dex mod) = 13 (min die roll)
Fighter 14: Die roll + 4 (base reflex mod) +1 (dex mod) = 12 (min die roll)
PF2e: (fighters are expert in reflex)
Fighter 8: Die roll + 1 (dex mod) + 9 (level +1) = 5 (min die roll to succeed)
Fighter 11: Die roll +1 (dex mod) +12 (level +1) = 2 (min die roll)
Fighter 14: Die roll +1 (dex mod) + 15 (level +1) = auto
Even if fighters are only trained in reflex:
Fighter 8: Die roll + 1 (dex mod) + 8 (level) = 6 (min die roll to succeed)
Fighter 11: Die roll +1 (dex mod) +11 (level) = 3 (min die roll)
Fighter 14: Die roll +1 (dex mod) + 14 (level) = auto
* note that Full Plate still allows a +1 Dex mod; and given the above data, I'm not going to bother looking up bulk encumbrance rules to see it a fighter carrying a battleship on their back suddenly allows the wizard to hit them.
**note that these super low saves means that these fighters will critically succeed at a much higher rate, taking ZERO damage. At least in PF1e, they would take half damage.
Someone please double check me, but I'm pretty sure this works out. If it doesn't than I'm sorry I don't have a great grasp of the rules just yet. If it does, I might need to post this on a seperate thread to see if it attracts an official response. Thanks Wakedown for forcing me to do the math.
...
It's a little bit unclear but are you adding wizards lvl to spell DC? the proficiency should be symmetric.
Lvl 11 Wizard (20 Int, Trained)
DC = 10 + 11 Trained + 5 Int = 26
Lvl 11 Fighter (12 Dex, Expert)
Die Roll + 12 Expert +1 Dex = Success on a 13 critical success on a 20
Did you add 10 to the target save DC for the fighters? The Wizard’s save DC for his Fireball is 25 (10 + level 11 + 4 for INT), not counting any other bonuses; so the fighter level 8 needs a 15 or better; the Fighter 11 needs a 12 or better, and the Fighter 14 needs a 10 or better. Page 291 gives calculation save DCs.
So the Fighter 8 will crit-fail on a 5, the Fighter 11 will crit-fail on a 2 and the Fighter 14 will only crit-fail on a natural 1. (Or maybe not at all, the part of the rules about natural 1s and nat 20s was still a bit fuzzy.)
Bardarok wrote: It's a little bit unclear but are you adding wizards lvl to spell DC? the proficiency should be symmetric.
Lvl 11 Wizard (20 Int, Trained)
DC = 10 + 11 Trained + 5 Int = 26
Lvl 11 Fighter (12 Dex, Expert)
Die Roll + 12 Expert +1 Dex = Success on a 13 critical success on a 20
OMG Thank you for at least responding.
Ok you're using different numbers than I did but I can work through this,
Wizard level is added to opposed DC due to my understanding of the proficiency check. Creating a DC of 15, 16 in your example with Int 20.
Fighter 11 has an automatic + 13 to roll (level +1[expert] + 1 Dex) resulting in Die Roll +13 = Roll 3 or greater to succeed or 13 for crit success.
I think the fighter only doesn't crit fail on a natural 1 if their bonus was +24 such that 1 +24 was actually a success.
AshVandal wrote: Bardarok wrote: It's a little bit unclear but are you adding wizards lvl to spell DC? the proficiency should be symmetric.
Lvl 11 Wizard (20 Int, Trained)
DC = 10 + 11 Trained + 5 Int = 26
Lvl 11 Fighter (12 Dex, Expert)
Die Roll + 12 Expert +1 Dex = Success on a 13 critical success on a 20
OMG Thank you for at least responding.
Ok you're using different numbers than I did but I can work through this,
Wizard level is added to opposed DC due to my understanding of the proficiency check. Creating a DC of 15, 16 in your example with Int 20.
Fighter 11 has an automatic + 13 to roll (level +1[expert] + 1 Dex) resulting in Die Roll +13 = Roll 3 or greater to succeed or 13 for crit success. I think you are missing that base 10. The fighter gets to roll a d20. The Wizard doesn't roll but the DC is 10 + Proficiency + Int.
DC =/= Proficiency + Int
DC = 10 + Proficiency + Int
Bardarok wrote: AshVandal wrote: Bardarok wrote: It's a little bit unclear but are you adding wizards lvl to spell DC? the proficiency should be symmetric.
Lvl 11 Wizard (20 Int, Trained)
DC = 10 + 11 Trained + 5 Int = 26
Lvl 11 Fighter (12 Dex, Expert)
Die Roll + 12 Expert +1 Dex = Success on a 13 critical success on a 20
OMG Thank you for at least responding.
Ok you're using different numbers than I did but I can work through this,
Wizard level is added to opposed DC due to my understanding of the proficiency check. Creating a DC of 15, 16 in your example with Int 20.
Fighter 11 has an automatic + 13 to roll (level +1[expert] + 1 Dex) resulting in Die Roll +13 = Roll 3 or greater to succeed or 13 for crit success. I think you are missing that base 10. The fighter gets to roll a d20. The Wizard doesn't roll but the DC is 10 + Proficiency + Int.
DC =/= Proficiency + Int
DC = 10 + Proficiency + Int Ok, I believe you, I just need to see it. Please what page of the doc is the DC base 10 on? I knew I was overlooking something.
Page 421: Class DC
"Your class DC = 10 + your level + your key ability modifier. Nonspellcasters use their class DC as the DC for many of their class features."
Edit: Just barely ahead of Milo and I was lazy and just looked at the Glossary. I figured it was also somewhere earlier, but frankly some of the stuff that I think I can find, I can't.
AshVandal wrote:
Ok, I believe you, I just need to see it. Please what page of the doc is the DC base 10 on? I knew I was overlooking something. The rules for DCs on page 8.
Nevermind, crisis averted found it on page 291. I think they should have put that in the chart directly above the text box but I finally read it. Thanks Bardarok and ENHenry for responding.
Page 8 under the heading "Your Difficulty Class"
Excellent it's actually in multiple places, thanks Milo and Alyran for also responding, Sorry to be foolish everyone.
/thread
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