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While many things in the play test were fascinating for me, the one big pull was “10th level spells.” What could they be? What cool, powerful new spells could wizards aspire to reach?
Oh. Level 9 spells. Huh. That’s...disappointing.
I didn’t realize Paizo was reading the “College Textbook” playbook.
Developer 1: Hey, you know what would be a great way to make more money? Let’s shuffle everything around into new chapters, maybe change things around a bit, and sell it!
Developer 2: But how will we convince everyone to buy it? It’s basically the same thing.
Developer 1: Don’t worry! We’ll make it a requirement to switch to the new version for any future modules! And hey, I’ve been talking to EA and Bungie. We could even do the same with our supplemental books! Let’s just shuffle and resell them, too!
Bait and switch. I can live without future modules, but I’m good on this rehash.
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Most of the 10th level spells are just nerfed versions of previous 9th level spells, with a feat tax, pushed to level 20th, and usable once per day.
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Most of the 10th level spells are just nerfed versions of previous 9th level spells, with a feat tax, pushed to level 20th, and usable once per day.
Oh good, it was annoying how much everyone was spamming 9th level spells all the time.....
oh wait, no that was never a thing. On rare occasions that I had characters capable of casting 9th level spells they seemed perfectly reasonable for the things my character was having to deal with and as with any caster at any level, I had to gauge if the current encounter was worth "blowing my big spells on" or not.
I know, 10th level spell are one of the most disappointing features/bugs of PF2
Wish was buffed inasmuch as it no longer costs money, making it equivalent to the most common use of Miracle in PF1. Gate got a bump because accurate transportation magic is otherwise impossible, and calling is now a ritual and was a horribly OP use of the old spell. Time Stop was pretty abusable and still is - just not as often per day.
Incidentally it’s not clear whether Sorcerer and Wizard boosts to spells at every level apply as well to 10th, giving them access to 2 per day, or 3 for specialist Wizards.
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Wish was buffed inasmuch as it no longer costs money, making it equivalent to the most common use of Miracle in PF1. Gate got a bump because accurate transportation magic is otherwise impossible, and calling is now a ritual and was a horribly OP use of the old spell. Time Stop was pretty abusable and still is - just not as often per day.
Incidentally it’s not clear whether Sorcerer and Wizard boosts to spells at every level apply as well to 10th, giving them access to 2 per day, or 3 for specialist Wizards.
The only reason Wish had a material cost was for ability score increments and item creation, options that are now removed from PF2.
Gate was nerfed, Time Stop is almost the same, but the fact remains that they were pushed to level 20th, behind a feat tax, and casters gain a single spell slot.
I'm fine with the most powerful previously 9th tier spells being pushed to 10 tier. But after seeing them, they're not so much better than the remaining 9th tier spells that they warrant breaking the progression and requiring a feat. Just extend out the 1-9 progression, so you pick up 10th tier slots normally at 19th level.
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I'm fine with the most powerful previously 9th tier spells being pushed to 10 tier. But after seeing them, they're not so much better than the remaining 9th tier spells that they warrant breaking the progression and requiring a feat. Just extend out the 1-9 progression, so you pick up 10th tier slots normally at 19th level.
Exactly.
Remove the feat tax and continue the spell slot progression, two 10th level spell slots at 19th and another one at 20th.
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IDK. I appreciate Wish having a notable tradeoff in terms of a capstone feat.
As for 10th level spells I like, I absolutely love Fabricated Reality tbh.
Wish or Miracle SPECIFICALLY could require a feat. (And the equivalent Primal / Occult options.) But the others? Only about as much better than a 9th tier spell as a 9th is above 8th. There's no reason not to just extend the progression.
Wish or Miracle SPECIFICALLY could require a feat. (And the equivalent Primal / Occult options.) But the others? Only about as much better than a 9th tier spell as a 9th is above 8th. There's no reason not to just extend the progression.
That's fair, but I think some like Time Stop would cause issues if expanded to 3/4 times a day for a wizard. Which, I confess, is a different issue entirely to the feat gating.
I feel like the spell combination feat might actually be better than getting a single lvl 10 spell slot.
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As bad as all that is, I still find the bait and switch itself the most disappointing part. Moving Wish or Time Stop up to level 10, hey, I don’t like it, but so be it. But the whole thing I got excited about was NEW, top tier spells. Something fascinating and tantalizing to make reaching such end game content worth it. Instead, it’s just the same spells with disappointing restrictions.
It’s like buying a sequel or DLC for a video game and finding out it’s nerfed your gameplay for the sake of nerfing. Because, why not?
Wish or Miracle SPECIFICALLY could require a feat. (And the equivalent Primal / Occult options.) But the others? Only about as much better than a 9th tier spell as a 9th is above 8th. There's no reason not to just extend the progression.That's fair, but I think some like Time Stop would cause issues if expanded to 3/4 times a day for a wizard. Which, I confess, is a different issue entirely to the feat gating.
As written a Wizard can definitely use his drain arcane focus on a 10th level slot, a specialist can arguably prepare "an extra spell of your chosen school at each spell level you can cast" and a Sorcerer's bloodline arguably "gives you a bonus spell slot of each level you can cast." Only Druids, Clerics (and Bards if they get the ability) are actually restricted to one 10th level spell per day.
Wizards also synergize with a 10th level spell by picking Makeshift Wand, Superior Focus, and the prepare an extra spell familiar option, as it raises your max spell level and therefore the cap on these abilities.
I feel like the spell combination feat might actually be better than getting a single lvl 10 spell slot.
Agreed, you can do some really nasty stuff with this. If Paizo erratas away arcane focus and specialization slots for 10th level, and you don't go with Makeshift Wand/Superior Focus I think Spell Combination is the clear winner, especially for a generalist who can reuse those combo slots with his arcane focus.
Specialisation slots for 10th lvl only applies to Diviner, Transmuter and Conjurer anyway.
Imagine Horrid Wilting doubled for 18 d10 negative damage for everyone in 500 feet. And then you still have one action to put on your sunglasses to look cool.
Specialisation slots for 10th lvl only applies to Diviner, Transmuter and Conjurer anyway.
Well every specialist would have a slot where you can put a heightened version of a lower level spell, and I assume as the game goes on a few more 10th level spells will be published, although I can't see it ever being a big area of development focus.
Imagine Horrid Wilting doubled for 18 d10 negative damage for everyone in 500 feet. And then you still have one action to put on your sunglasses to look cool.
This won't work for Spell Combination, "both must target only one creature or object or have the option to target only one creature or object" and "when you cast a combined spell, it affects only one target, even if the component spells normally affect more than one target." But a Polar Ray and heightened Disintegrate (or Acid Arrow, or Enervation, or whatever) can go together.
Fair enough. I still have to get used to this whole "having heightened lower level spells in higher lvl spell slots" thing.