It probably best to give the actual example I'm looking at
Serpentine Form, with the torso of a woman complete with arms. picture medusa.
However I'm interested in increasing her base speed by 10feet with the limb legs discovery.
Would it be reasonable to increase base speed by 10feet for 2 evo points without actually adding the legs to the model so to speak
by the same token
Would it be reasonable to visually see arms from a torso which are primarily for improving locomotion and not for holding things.
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It probably best to give the actual example I'm looking at
Serpentine Form, with the torso of a woman complete with arms. picture medusa.
However I'm interested in increasing her base speed by 10feet with the limb legs discovery.
Would it be reasonable to increase base speed by 10feet for 2 evo points without actually adding the legs to the model so to speak
by the same token
Would it be reasonable to visually see arms from a torso which are primarily for improving locomotion and not for holding things.
The way that they are written up, I am sure that they can look like anything you want, as long as they are (a) limbs, and (b) only provide the benefits of the legs evolution.
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The only point of contention I see is that normally adding legs to serpentine makes you vulnerable to tripping/being prone. This is somewhat circumstantial, but comes up often enough to be valuable.
Not sure how I'd rule this one considering I've already banned summoner (technically my whole group agreed that it needed to be banned after it had been played in two different games, both times brokenly good).
EDIT: (Yes, we read the rules to summoner properly. It didn't help.)
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Short answer : ask your DM.
Long answer : I see no reason to not allow someone to simply refluff an ability if this is done for roleplay reason and doesn't provide a free benefit. Limbs(legs) does not need to cost more to provide the same benefit. But I would also assume that if you took a serpentine form, it wasn't to run around the battlefield.
For the arms, why not simply treat them as Limbs(legs) on the sheet, looking like arms ? There is no difference if they are already used like legs and can't be used to hold things.
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For arguments sake say you wanted to have a base speed of 80 feet
do you really need to visually represent 6 sets of legs ?
If you look at the wings discovery that lets you bump the speed by spending more evo points without adding additional sets of wings.
just erks me that that fastest land based eidolons would need to effectively be centipedes
The only point of contention I see is that normally adding legs to serpentine makes you vulnerable to tripping/being prone. This is somewhat circumstantial, but comes up often enough to be valuable.
Not sure how I'd rule this one considering I've already banned summoner (technically my whole group agreed that it needed to be banned after it had been played in two different games, both times brokenly good).
EDIT: (Yes, we read the rules to summoner properly. It didn't help.)
bit off topic but I'll go with it ;)
I'll be honest, I'd blame the individual players for that. Just because the rules allow you to do something doesn't mean you have to. It's called restraint there's nothing stopping a player from NOT choosing to make 6 million full BAB attacks, or having immunity/DR everything.
I'm playing an Alchemist right now at 14th level , I COULD be rocking out with 6-7 bomb attacks per round, but I've chosen to limit myself to iterative BAB bombs/round, which at the moment is 2. All of a sudden I'm still effective but no longer dominating combats by OTKing the BBEG.
If players restrain themselves, then GM's don't have to ;)
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bit off topic but I'll go with it ;)
I'll be honest, I'd blame the individual players for that. Just because the rules allow you to do something doesn't mean you have to. It's called restraint there's nothing stopping a player from NOT choosing to make 6 million full BAB attacks, or having immunity/DR everything.
I'm playing an Alchemist right now at 14th level , I COULD be rocking out with 6-7 bomb attacks per round, but I've chosen to limit myself to iterative BAB bombs/round, which at the moment is 2. All of a sudden I'm still effective but no longer dominating combats by OTKing the BBEG.
If players restrain themselves, then GM's don't have to ;)
Wait, doesn't any BBEG higher than 3rd level have at least one adept minion to cast Wind Wall, and make any 20th level archer/bomb alchemist build inept just by existing ?
The problem with the summoner is that there is a border between "overpowered" and "average/weak". Finding such border of optimization can be problematic when you do not wish to become sub-par on a team.
bit off topic but I'll go with it ;)
I'll be honest, I'd blame the individual players for that. Just because the rules allow you to do something doesn't mean you have to. It's called restraint there's nothing stopping a player from NOT choosing to make 6 million full BAB attacks, or having immunity/DR everything.
I'm playing an Alchemist right now at 14th level , I COULD be rocking out with 6-7 bomb attacks per round, but I've chosen to limit myself to iterative BAB bombs/round, which at the moment is 2. All of a sudden I'm still effective but no longer dominating combats by OTKing the BBEG.
If players restrain themselves, then GM's don't have to ;)
Wait, doesn't any BBEG higher than 3rd level have at least one adept minion to cast Wind Wall, and make any 20th level archer/bomb alchemist build inept just by existing ?
The problem with the summoner is that there is a border between "overpowered" and "average/weak". Finding such border of optimization can be problematic when you do not wish to become sub-par on a team.
Heh like I said comes down to the player, being sub-par for a level is not going to kill the campaign, might even give others a chance to shine. Takes a certain type of player to accept that I guess.
Of course even if you build an overpowered synthesist doesn't mean you have to use its full potentially every single round.
e.g. just because you have pounce and 3 attacks doesn't stop you from walking up to an enemy and making a single attack instead. makes you more dynamic if you have bursts of being incredible instead of being incredible all the time.
Heh and just on your windwall minion, burst of speed though the wall, dispel bomb on the wall, stand next to the hapless minion and detonate, dragon breath him for afar, polymorph and tear its head off. Alchemist is far from a one trick pony stopped by a mere windwall
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Heh like I said comes down to the player, being sub-par for a level is not going to kill the campaign, might even give others a chance to shine. Takes a certain type of player to accept that I guess.
Of course even if you build an overpowered synthesist doesn't mean you have to use its full potentially every single round.
e.g. just because you have pounce and 3 attacks doesn't stop you from walking up to an enemy and making a single attack instead. makes you more dynamic if you have bursts of being incredible instead of being incredible all the time.
Heh, I'm all for archetypes being both awesome and balanced enough that you don't have to nerf yourself to make others shine, and I love the synthesist concept, but simply not using class features is not being comprehensive, it's almost being insulting to your fellow players.
Heh and just on your windwall minion, burst of speed though the wall, dispel bomb on the wall, stand next to the hapless minion and detonate, dragon breath him for afar, polymorph and tear its head off. Alchemist is far from a one trick pony stopped by a mere windwall
Burst of speed makes you spend a limited ressource to go through the wall, which could hide a sound wall or a readied force wall from another wizard. Dispelling bomb needs a direct hit, and only may be used on it's "targeted" version. Dragon breath allows a save and doesn't do as much damage as your bombs. The minion is invisible, and the BBEG's guards are polarm masters with reach.
If the DM knows what you can do, he can make any fight a cool challenge.
Your not insulting other players by role playing instead of maximising what you can do.
Would you consider it an insult if a mage who injured an innocent npc by accident the first time he threw a fireball and subsequently stopped using all fire magic an insult because he wasn't using the class to the "best" of its ability in your eyes. (and no lets not argue about optimal spells for a mage at 3rd level, insert whatever spell you consider the best for a 3rd level mage spell where you see Fireball written ;) )
As for the alchemist effectively what your saying now is if the GM wants to gimp your character he can. Um yeah no argument here :P. The point I'm making is that if you don't give him a reason to gimp you he won't need to. a GM can make an encounter to specifically lock down a level 20 Wizard with time stop and all the trimmings if he wants to. But if said wizard isn't an abuser of his power the GM won't need to tailor make encounters to prevent him from doing that every single time.
GM's aren't there to be beaten, they're there to create an enjoyable game for the group, why not make their life easier ;)
The only point of contention I see is that normally adding legs to serpentine makes you vulnerable to tripping/being prone. This is somewhat circumstantial, but comes up often enough to be valuable.
Not sure how I'd rule this one considering I've already banned summoner (technically my whole group agreed that it needed to be banned after it had been played in two different games, both times brokenly good).
EDIT: (Yes, we read the rules to summoner properly. It didn't help.)
Just curious, but do you ban the druid as well?
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Just curious, but do you ban the druid as well?The only point of contention I see is that normally adding legs to serpentine makes you vulnerable to tripping/being prone. This is somewhat circumstantial, but comes up often enough to be valuable.
Not sure how I'd rule this one considering I've already banned summoner (technically my whole group agreed that it needed to be banned after it had been played in two different games, both times brokenly good).
EDIT: (Yes, we read the rules to summoner properly. It didn't help.)
Nope. It's powerful, but we've yet to have a druid come into the game and dominate just by picking the obvious class options. They've been good, but never overwhelming. Then again, I can only recall exactly one druid and they didn't have an AC (they picked a domain instead).
Both times the summoner appeared, we could literally have left the summoner to do the fighting and been fine. In fact, in one encounter we did just that (sort-of). The DM had started buffing the encounters, and in this case doubled the number of monsters in it. The rest of the party fought one half of the encounter (or what the encounter was supposed to be), and the synthesis fought the other half. Both fights were going about equally well. (5-man party.)
I'm sure the druid could dominate, but it doesn't do so just by existing.
Huh.
And the synthesist is the munchkin trap.
Huh.
And the synthesist is the munchkin trap.
hahah sound like a good way to test what kind of player you really are ;)
What I meant is that it seems powerful, but is actually worse off than the base summoner.
I wouldn't allow it personally, just because no one *ever* gets it right.
What I meant is that it seems powerful, but is actually worse off than the base summoner.
I wouldn't allow it personally, just because no one *ever* gets it right.
ah your referring to the loss of action economy ;) gotcha
The simplest solution, assuming that you are of high enough level and have enough evolution points, is to take the Flight evolution. You would spend 2 points to gain wings and fly at a speed of 20 (assuming serpentine base form), 2 more points to eliminate the wings and improve maneuverability to Perfect, and 1 more point per 20 feet that you wish to add to speed. Have the eidolon fly close to the ground, and you will have achieved the desired effect.
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The thing is the OP IS looking for a mechanical benefit. He wants a walking serpentine form that's not trippable. In other words he's trying to circumvent the price he paid for the built-in advantage.Short answer : ask your DM.
Long answer : I see no reason to not allow someone to simply refluff an ability if this is done for roleplay reason and doesn't provide a free benefit. Limbs(legs) does not need to cost more to provide the same benefit. But I would also assume that if you took a serpentine form, it wasn't to run around the battlefield.
For the arms, why not simply treat them as Limbs(legs) on the sheet, looking like arms ? There is no difference if they are already used like legs and can't be used to hold things.
Actually, it's a bit more extensive than that. AFAIK, they are immune to being Prone. This means that they would not have to "stand up" if they were waking up from unconsciousness (whether from sleep, negative HP or other effects).
I'd probably only charge a one-time 1 point cost for this, though. It's a bit circumstantial.
Why hasn't anyone suggested making an evolution for it himself?
"Slither Faster, 3 points. Increase your base speed by 10."
Gets around that ability to be tripped at a higher price.
1) I would allow extra points to increase speed without adding legs. You're legs become more functional increasing speed. If you really want say your "legs" are extra snake tails or whatever.
2) Increasing yoru base speed increases your flight speed. Basically if you have flight you could get legs to increse the flight as well as land speed. Of course just being a faster flyer is a better use of points if you're going for sheer speed, but thought it warranted pointing out.
Limbs (Ex) : An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon's base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.
Flight (Ex or Su) : An eidolon grows large wings, like those of a bat, bird, insect, or dragon, gaining the ability to fly. The eidolon gains a fly speed equal to its base speed. The eidolon's maneuverability depends on it size. Medium or smaller eidolons have good maneuverability. Large eidolons have average maneuverability, while Huge eidolons have poor maneuverability. For 2 additional evolution points, the eidolon flies by means of magic. It loses its wings, but its maneuverability increases to perfect. Flying via magic means makes this a supernatural ability. The eidolon's fly speed can be increased by spending additional evolution points, gaining a 20-foot increase to fly speed for each additional point spent. The summoner must be at least 5th level before selecting this evolution.
It probably best to give the actual example I'm looking at
Serpentine Form, with the torso of a woman complete with arms. picture medusa.
However I'm interested in increasing her base speed by 10feet with the limb legs discovery.
Would it be reasonable to increase base speed by 10feet for 2 evo points without actually adding the legs to the model so to speak
by the same token
Would it be reasonable to visually see arms from a torso which are primarily for improving locomotion and not for holding things.
Yes, you can skin your abilities and appearances to look however you want. As long as it doesn't affect the game mechanically.
The only point of contention I see is that normally adding legs to serpentine makes you vulnerable to tripping/being prone. This is somewhat circumstantial, but comes up often enough to be valuable.
Not sure how I'd rule this one considering I've already banned summoner (technically my whole group agreed that it needed to be banned after it had been played in two different games, both times brokenly good).
EDIT: (Yes, we read the rules to summoner properly. It didn't help.)
Serpentine creatures are can't be tripped not because of the presence or absence of legs, but because they function equally as well on their bellies as they do on their legs. Take the Behir for example. It is a serpentine creature with legs and it can't be tripped.
As such, I would most certainly allow someone to take the legs evolution without adding actual legs or losing trip immunity.
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The only point of contention I see is that normally adding legs to serpentine makes you vulnerable to tripping/being prone. This is somewhat circumstantial, but comes up often enough to be valuable.
Not sure how I'd rule this one considering I've already banned summoner (technically my whole group agreed that it needed to be banned after it had been played in two different games, both times brokenly good).
EDIT: (Yes, we read the rules to summoner properly. It didn't help.)
Serpentine creatures are can't be tripped not because of the presence or absence of legs, but because they function equally as well on their bellies as they do on their legs. Take the Behir for example. It is a serpentine creature with legs and it can't be tripped.
As such, I would most certainly allow someone to take the legs evolution without adding actual legs or losing trip immunity.
...How do those legs not get in the way of slithering?!
Oh well. It seems there is an actual example of a creature that both slithers and walks. @OP: Have your move speed increase sans-legs, the legs can be treated as pure fluff (except in PFS, of course).
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(paraphrased from above)....You can increase your fly speed by simply spending 2 points of evolution without creating an extra set of wings... The same would stand for limbs as well. Essentially instead of having six sets of spindly legs, you could have two enormously muscled legs like a kangaroo or anything in between.I always find it interesting when people 'need' to ban a class from play...
I hate banning things, personally, but this wasn't exactly a "DM laying the hammer down" situation. This was all of the players at the table saying "Yeah, that class needs to go." For us, at our table, it was making the game less fun when someone played it (the person playing the summoner the second time voluntarily changed characters).
If a player wanted to use some concepts from the Summoner and was willing to lose some of the summoner's abilities, we might reconsider. Who knows.
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If a player wanted to use some concepts from the Summoner and was willing to lose some of the summoner's abilities, we might reconsider. Who knows.The issue is still more in the build than in the Summoner Class itself. It's sounds like your guys are a good group to play with. But there are any number of power-builds out there and as longer as there are players who play that style there will always be loopholes to be exploited.
What abilities would you remove? I have two summoners and am considering a third (making two summoners in PFS). None of them are power-builds, don't get me wrong they contribute to the party and fulfil their role but in no way are they optimised DPR, spot-light hogging characters.
Basically, the eidolon would be a strong companion even if it took no evolutions whatsoever. A bipedal one would land at a strength of 24, a dexterity of 20 and a +18 natural armor bonus.
They would use either their three claws (one at -5, read the multi-attack ability) or would use one hand/claw for a manufactured weapon to get 15/10/5 with that while still getting 10/5 (taking into account the -5 penalty) with the claw they can double-up on. Lastly, they could just two-hand something for a 15/10/5 with strength and a half. None of these numbers include any strength, magical or other bonuses. Just BAB and any multi-weapon or multi-attack penalties.
The above is roughly equal to what the average animal companion can do, which would fine except that they then get all sorts of evolution points on top of this that make them vastly more powerful. A druid must train and order their animal companion (eventually this is minor), and if they die must spend a full day replacing them (losing access until they get a chance to do so). A summoner can lose their Eidolon entirely and just use a 2nd level spell when fights come up to get them back while they wait out the 24-hour period, after which it takes only a minute to get their eidolon back.
If you compare the summoner-only to druid-only (discounting their companions), they are somewhat comparable with the exception that summoner is much less reliant on stats. Both have the ability to shift their form (albeit in a very different way) for physical prowess and have decent spellcasting (the summoner's 6 levels are effectively 8 spell levels due to what spells they get access to, 9 if you count their SLA).
TL;DR- Summoner (sans companion) is about the same as Druid (sans companion), but the summoner companion is vastly superior in virtually every way and would still be somewhat superior if you stripped their evolution points entirely due to their higher int and skill points and ability to communicate easily.
PS: I think it would be fair to have a player play ONLY the eidolon, granting it 20HD at medium BAB (roughly keeps the BAB the same).
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Ahhh you really need to have a closer look at the build. An Eidolon never gets 20HD ever! - at 20th level they have 15HD - and at they lower levels there is some staggering.
Read again: That was the custom rule suggestion. I know they only get 15 HD normally, though at high BAB.
As for the rest: We decided it just wasn't worth it. If you have to actively avoid certain concepts (such as a chtulhu-esque tentacle beast) just because they'll destroy everything, you're doing it wrong. Sure, you could avoid the... most of the evolutions, but you're better off just not playing it.
Like I said, then Synthesist in our group was doing just as much as the rest of the party put together. And Synthesist is less optimal than the regular summoner.
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In certain combats a Synthesist might be brilliant, but this is situational. Choose your enemies more carefully.Consider If he/she wakes up in the middle of the night how much does he contribute?
At higher levels what's wrong with dismissal?
Your Bad Guys get to be smart too, if they have Darkvision then why not attack at night? in fact Why are they attacking during the day when they are a disadvantage? nets, tanglefoot bags, arrows, longspears - tactics.
If the Synthesist is filling a fighter role in a party and is acting as a tank then it's hardly surprising that the remainder of your party; your wizard, rogue and cleric? aren't dealing it out - that isn't their role.
Are you going to nerf the party wizard when fireball gets used? - it's also highly situational and under the right conditions can end a combat in one round.
It was a Synthesist/Monk who took the feat to keep the eidolon going when asleep (forget what it's called). Even if you did catch them without their eidolon shell, they were still an 18 wisdom monk with okay physical stats who would contribute only a little less than the rest of the party, assuming they didn't start casting spells to buff instead (low cha, not enough to justify offensive spells). I'm pretty sure that they still had 20+ AC when not in fused form (16 at absolute minimum with no buffs or items of any form).
And yes, you could specifically attack when weak. But you don't want to do that for every single fight or it gets tiresome. How often do you steal a wizard's spellbook? How often do you have the fighter attacked while taking a bath? How often do you use spells to force metal armor onto a druid? Not very often, or it just gets cruel.
Dismissal, while an option, is a will save. The character had a high base will save for both their classes and a +4 wis mod (net +10 mod at level 5). They had the highest will save of the group. Not likely to work.
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Also, don't forget the rogues advanced talent Dispelling Strike:
Dispelling Attack* (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. A rogue must have the major magic rogue talent before choosing dispelling attack.
From the PRD on dispel magic:
If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by summon monster), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.
So a 10th level + rogue could dispel a summoners pet(or armor in the case of a synthesist). Or at least make many attempts per round as attacks (if positioned right).
The thing is the OP IS looking for a mechanical benefit. He wants a walking serpentine form that's not trippable. In other words he's trying to circumvent the price he paid for the built-in advantage.Short answer : ask your DM.
Long answer : I see no reason to not allow someone to simply refluff an ability if this is done for roleplay reason and doesn't provide a free benefit. Limbs(legs) does not need to cost more to provide the same benefit. But I would also assume that if you took a serpentine form, it wasn't to run around the battlefield.
For the arms, why not simply treat them as Limbs(legs) on the sheet, looking like arms ? There is no difference if they are already used like legs and can't be used to hold things.
But the benefits he get automatically comes with some drawbacks:
- The primary one being that he cannot use those limbs for natural weapons.
- Without actually having the legs, he does not gain increased carrying capacity.
- Not being a quad-ped, he can never gain pounce.
I really cannot see how granting +10 ft base speed to a serpentine eidolon can cost more than 2 evo points. Otherwise you make it cheaper to smack those wings on instead (which also makes it immune to tripping).
It was a Synthesist/Monk who took the feat to keep the eidolon going when asleep (forget what it's called).
You need to double check that feat, if I remember correctly, that only lasts rounds before the eidolon is banished.
PS
Resilient EidolonYour link with your eidolon is strong enough that it can remain with you for a short time after you fall unconscious or are killed.
Prerequisite: Eidolon class feature.
Benefit: If you are knocked unconscious, fall asleep, or are killed, your eidolon remains for a number of rounds equal to your summoner level before it is banished. If you are brought back to consciousness before this duration expires, your eidolon is not banished. If the duration expires before you are brought back to consciousness, your eidolon is banished normally.
Normal: An eidolon is immediately banished when its summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed.
A synthesist can not even take this feat because it does not have the Eidolon class feature, unless there has been a errata or FAQ I have not noticed.
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It was a Synthesist/Monk who took the feat to keep the eidolon going when asleep (forget what it's called).
As the poster above me stated, the synthesist does not have the "eidolon" class feature, he has the "fused eidolon" class feature. He's not eligible for resilient eidolon or any of the other summoner specific feats.
Even if it was house ruled that he was, resilient eidolon only lasts 1 round / level.
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Okay, so we could have challenged him a bit on exactly one encounter (most encounters aren't a "they snuck up on him while sleeping" situation). He was still a monk (with a very high wisdom), and he was still a summoner with his 2nd level buffs to help out as support. In the meantime, in every other encounter, they dominate everything without even trying.
The thing is the OP IS looking for a mechanical benefit. He wants a walking serpentine form that's not trippable. In other words he's trying to circumvent the price he paid for the built-in advantage.
I would argue that he is not trippable anyways, seeing as he is of the serpentine base form.
But the benefits he get automatically comes with some drawbacks:
The primary one being that he cannot use those limbs for natural weapons.
If he wants to keep to his theme, this is true. However, there is nothing stopping him from keeping the same leg evolutions, adding natural attacks to them later, and claiming that his serpent suddenly sprouted the legs (which isn't an uncommon thing for eidolons to do, whether it's flavor or mechanics).
Without actually having the legs, he does not gain increased carrying capacity.
As a serpentine creature, he was already benefiting from quadruped carrying capacities, and likely does not lose that even if he were to add a single pair of legs (the creature can still slither with or without legs).
Not being a quad-ped, he can never gain pounce.
He could never gain pounce anyways as that requires the quadruped base form, something he will never have past level 1 (since he chose the serpentine form) short of his summoner being an evolutionist.
I really cannot see how granting +10 ft base speed to a serpentine eidolon can cost more than 2 evo points. Otherwise you make it cheaper to smack those wings on instead (which also makes it immune to tripping).
I agree with this point. People are really overthinking the matter.
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Okay, so we could have challenged him a bit on exactly one encounter (most encounters aren't a "they snuck up on him while sleeping" situation). He was still a monk (with a very high wisdom), and he was still a summoner with his 2nd level buffs to help out as support. In the meantime, in every other encounter, they dominate everything without even trying.
The bold part is as much a source of the problem as the synthesist class. Your player was combining two mechanics from two separate classes, either one of which would have resulted in decent AC. The result of both mechanics being used on the same character is extraordinary AC. You would have achieved balance just as effectively by banning Monk. (Actually, more so, a level dip into monk can be used to create high ac in other builds.)
A synthesist can not even take this feat because it does not have the Eidolon class feature, unless there has been a errata or FAQ I have not noticed.
This statement turns out to be incorrect. They sythesist fused eidolon ability counts as Summon Eidolon class ability.
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This statement turns out to be incorrect. They sythesist fused eidolon ability counts as Summon Eidolon class ability.
A synthesist can not even take this feat because it does not have the Eidolon class feature, unless there has been a errata or FAQ I have not noticed.
Do you have a link to where that is stated officially?
If so, certain feats are going to become very powerful in the hands of a synthesist. I'll be able to pull tricks such as having a 24+ perception at level 1.
Resilient Eidolon won't be one of them though, the duration is too limited.
Here it is, can't believe I didn't notice this sentence (it is also a link).
"In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability..."