Surprise Round question

[lucasolt]

Ok,

here is the deal

the party is talking to two bad guys who are asking for money
in the shadows, 2 archers are hidden
the party's rogue notice them and try to alert his allies, but the archers see the movement and instantaneously attack.

Ok, surprise round. The party's rogue and the archers in the shadow play the surprise round.
what about the bad guys in the open, talking? if the rogue attacks them, they are flatfooted. But they clearly are aware of the rogue, and should be able to roll initative. But then, if they play the surprise round, the rest of the party is going to be flatfooted against them. which is strange as they are very well aware of them too.

this if frying my brain, i hope my description is not too confusing. I think the better solution would be to make the guys in the open surprised too.
hope someone can help on this.

thank you

[Cavall]

Being aware of someone is not the same as being aware of someone attacking. That's why suckerpunching is a thing.

[Meirril]

In that situation I'd just have the 2 archerers have a surprise round and everybody else is flat footed until they get to their initiative. If you want the rogue to get something, he isn't flat footed and gets +4 on his initiative. The 2 archerers are ready to attack and they don't try to communicate with their partners so they are caught by surprise too.

[dragonhunterq]

For the bad guys in the open I would give them a sense motive or perception check vs the Rogues bluff or sleight of hand check (depending on how he tried to notify his allies) to see whether they get to act in the surprise round. If they fail they were too busy talking to notice suspicious activity by the rogue.

The rogue should definitely get to act in the surprise round whatever happens.

[Hugo Rune]

I would rule that the archers and the rogue are aware of each other and it is just a straight initiative check between them as to who reacts first. Everybody else gets to act after the surprise round.

[MrCharisma]

Definitely the rogue and the archers get a surprise round (and no one else). The simplest solution is to just go with that. As long as everyone's having fun and nobody objects, this is probably the most fun way to play it as it keeps everything moving at a good pace.

If you want to go a bit more complicated, you give the rogue a bluff check to pass a secret message (technically this should have happened, but it doesn't matter too much unless the rogue is investing in bluff). This would let him have a chance of alerting the entire party without the archers noticing.

[zza ni]

is in the combat rules under

surprise:

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

so i would let anyone who might notice to roll perception vs the stealth (unless they already failed and the rouge the only one who managed). anyone aware of the hidden enemies may try and act in the surprise round.