Hello, I have a question about the fleshwarping :
Fleshwarping
The entire fleshwarping process requires 1 day per Hit Die of the final fleshwarped creature. During this time, the fleshwarper must succeed at a Craft (alchemy) check with a DC equal to the creation DC of the fleshwarped creature (typically, 15 + the final fleshwarped creature’s Hit Dice) each day. Creating a fleshwarped creature takes a number of days equal to 1 + the final fleshwarped creature’s CR. The fleshwarper can’t gain the benefit of aid another nor can she take 10 on these checks.
Failure indicates each subject undergoing the fleshwarping process takes 1d3 points of Constitution damage, which can’t be healed until the process is complete, and that day’s work doesn’t count toward the creation time. If a fleshwarping subject’s Constitution damage (whether from this failure or the final Constitution damage at the conclusion) ever equals or exceeds its Constitution score, its body collapses into protoplasmic goo. Creatures slain in such a fashion can’t be raised from the dead except by true resurrection or equally powerful magic, and if any of the component creatures breaks down in this way, the final fleshwarp fails.
During the entire process, the subject is racked with the agony of the change. At the conclusion of the fleshwarping process, the final creation takes 2d6 points of Constitution damage. A successful DC 25 Heal check made by an attending participant can mitigate the suffering a subject undergoes, reducing the Constitution damage to 1d6 points.
Chirurgeon :
Anaesthetic: At 5th level, a chirurgeon learns how to supplement uses of the Heal skill with pain-killing drugs. He gains Skill Focus (Heal) as a bonus feat. Any use of the Heal skill that has a risk of harming the patient (such as extracting a barb) only deals the minimum damage when performed by a chirurgeon.
Can a chirurgeon with his class feature anaesthetic reduce the damage from the final creation from 2d6 -> 2 or 1d6 -> 1 with a successful heal check ?
Thanks for your future answer.
Waldham wrote: During the entire process, the subject is racked with the agony of the change. At the conclusion of the fleshwarping process, the final creation takes 2d6 points of Constitution damage. A successful DC 25 Heal check made by an attending participant can mitigate the suffering a subject undergoes, reducing the Constitution damage to 1d6 points.
Chirurgeon :
Anaesthetic: At 5th level, a chirurgeon learns how to supplement uses of the Heal skill with pain-killing drugs. He gains Skill Focus (Heal) as a bonus feat. Any use of the Heal skill that has a risk of harming the patient (such as extracting a barb) only deals the minimum damage when performed by a chirurgeon.
Can a chirurgeon with his class feature anaesthetic reduce the damage from the final creation from 2d6 -> 2 or 1d6 -> 1 with a successful heal check ?...
Yes; ability damage is a kind of damage by RAW, so the class feature applies.
That does not seem correct.
The Chirurgeon ability mitigates uses of the Heal skill that can lead to damage. Its the alchemy stuff that's leading to the damage here, the heal is just trying to reduce that. There's no risk of causing any damage.
Nothing about the Fleshwarping has the heal skill leading to damage if you fail. There is no risk of that... the damage is happening regardless, the heal skill only allows you to reduce it. There is no additional damage if you fail the check.
I went ahead and looked up barbed arrow so I could see the relevant text relating to the specific example given:
Quote: A barbed arrow hitting a target has a 50% chance of wedging in. If this occurs, the arrow will cause an additional 1d6 points of damage upon removal, unless a Heal check at DC 15 is made. This mirrors pretty closely the wording involved in the fleshwarping use of the HEal skill, so I think Fuzzy-Wuzzy is correct; this combination works, and you will only ever do 1 or 2 points of Con damage at the conclusion. Of course the other possible Con damage would not be reduced, as it is from the failed use of Craft (Alchemy) and Heal plays no part in it.
No, its different, in that the arrow does no damage at all if left alone.
Its the use of heal to remove that either a) does no damage (if the check succeeds), or b) or does damage (if the check fails)
Fleshwarping is doing the damage whether the heal skill comes into play or not. You are not mitigating damage that using the Heal skill risked causing. The exact description of the ability.
The fleshwarping will do no damage at all if you don't do it, too. But the text of what the Heal check does, specifically, is very similar; it is an optional check that you can make to reduce damage. In both cases the Heal check is optional; with the arrow you can just rip the barbed arrow out and cause the damage, no Heal check required.
merpius wrote: The fleshwarping will do no damage at all if you don't do it, too. This is just flat out false.
Read the description above please.
I did; are you suggesting that if you do not do a fleshwarping procedure at all, you will still take damage, just for having considered it?
Really, that's the argument you're trying to equate? That's even more off course.
The fact of the matter, there is absolutely no way using the heal skill on a Fleshwarped target, risks harming them. It can help reduce damage that's already happening, but does not risk doing any at all.
Compared to the afore mentioned barbed arrow... where using the heal skill there can remove it with no damage, but risks doing actual damage if you fail.
Those are different, and based on the wording of the Chiruergeon ability, it would not affect the Fleshwarping at all.
Not to say it wouldn't make sense to let it, but that's not how it reads.
I thought that is what you were saying? What I'm saying is this: you do not have to fleshwarp, any more than you have to pull out the arrow. If you choose to do either, you do not have to make a Heal check. If you choose not to you take damage. If you choose to use Heal and fail it does not increase the amount of damage you take relative to not attempting a Heal check at all. If you succeed, on both, it reduces the amount of damage you woudl take had you not even attempted to Heal check.
They are exactly parallel. Thus, the logic behind the one used as an example applies to the one not used as an example.
Are you asserting that you cannot pull out the barbed arrow WITHOUT attempting the Heal check?
To clarify my argument: deciding to initiate the action (pulling out the arrow or fleshwarping) is what triggers the damage, the Heal check merely acts to reduce the amount of damage taken as a result of the initiated action.
It is strange wording. If it didn't give pulling a barb as a specific example of when the ability applies, I would think that pulling a barb isn't something that qualifies. None of the normal applications of the heal skill "risk damaging the patient" as a result of the skill. I suppose a stabilize check might fall into that category, but it already only does 1 point of damage so the ability wouldn't do anything.
Therefore, I have to assume that if the skill applies to more than just removing barbs, it must apply to any time you are attempting to reduce or mitigate damage using the heal skill. Under this definition it absolutely applies to the heal check associated with fleshwarping.
If you just yank out the arrow, you are voluntarily failing the heal check.
Fleshwarping is equivalent to being shot with the arrow, not pulling it out.
They are the events that triggers everything else.
At this point, you're deciding how you want to use the Heal skill to respond to it.
In one case (the arrow) doing so, risks doing damage if you roll poorly.
In the other (the fleshwarping) doing so does not risk anything... there is no penalty for failing... but might help if you succeed.
LordKailas; the logic you give is exactly the logic I followed. I agree it is strangely worded, relative to the given example.
EvilMinion, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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