OK, so there's the rule that says: You may explore your location once each turn without playing a card that allows you to explore; this must be your first exploration for your turn.
Clockwork Butterfly from the Oracle deck has this text:
On your turn, recharge this card to examine the top card of your location deck. If it is an ally or a blessing, you may explore your location.
Ok, so I start my turn by playing CB and I don't reveal an ally or blessing. Have I now missed my "free" explore because I *could* have gotten an exploration? Or do I still get my free explore?
It's the conditional nature of the card that gets me, I guess. I just want to be sure I understand what the designers intended.
(My assumption: If I do reveal an ally/blessing, then I definitely have given up my free exploration. True?)
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Using Clockwork Butterfly as your first exploration forfeits your free explore. If you use it to examine but opt not to explore (even if you reveal an ally/blessing), then you still get your free explore.
Anytime a power tells you that you "may" do something and you decide not to do, then... well you didn't do anything so nothing happened.
E. g., if you didn't do your first exploration, then your next exploration is the first.
Don't look for issues when it's straightforward.
I wasn't looking for issues - I'm playing an Oracle in the upcoming PbF con and didn't want to screw up - and I didn't think the answer was 100% straightforward. (I was partly surprised by the answers, for instance.) But the answers do make sense. Thanks.
I do have a follow-up question, however. Is it legal to play CB outside of the Explore step?
A common play in PACG, for instance, would be to reveal a card, move away (if you weren't happy with the card), and then explore somewhere else. Is this possible with CB?
Is it:
I am allowed to play CB in my move step, but if an ally/blessing is revealed I can't take the exploration (because I can't explore outside of the Explore step). However, I can still move away and explore elsewhere.
or
I am forbidden from playing CB outside the Explore step (i.e., my movement must be finished before playing), because it could lead to a possible exploration.
Just like above... you can use it at any phase, but if you use it to explore, it starts the explore phase.
Just like above... you can use it at any phase, but if you use it to explore, it starts the explore phase.
Huh. Another surprising answer (to me). Glad I asked. :) And thanks again.
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Just like above... you can use it at any phase, but if you use it to explore, it starts the explore phase.Huh. Another surprising answer (to me). Glad I asked. :) And thanks again.
Just to be clear - all steps still happen, even if nothing happens IN them. So, if you're at a location that says: "Instead of your Move Step, move to a random location" - you can't play the CWB in your Start of Turn step, examine an Ally and say "I'm exploring, so I'm beginning my Exploration step" and skip the Location power in that way.
The major rule to apply here is - "Ignore impossible instructions". So you can play CWB at ANY time, but whenever you play it outside your Exploration step - you just completely ignore any "exploration " powers.
True!
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As an example, you can think of the difference between :
A) "On your turn, recharge this card to examine the top card of your location deck. If it is an ally or a blessing, you may explore your location."
B) "On your turn, recharge this card to examine the top card of your location deck. If it is an ally or a blessing, you may encounter it."
If the power is B), there is no mention of exploration, so you could recharge anytime during your turn and examine, then encounter/acquire.
If the power is A), you still can recharge anytime during your turn and examine. But you can only explore/encounter/acquire if you are recharging during your exploration step.
Now since you don't officially have to state in which step you are, Hannibal is right that you can play it anytime your "start of turn" effects are dealt with, de facto saying that you are skipping giving a card and moving steps and initiating the explore phase (but as Longshots pointed at, you deciding not to do anything during those steps doesn't mean they don't happen, and if automatic/triggered effects exist, they must be dealt with before you recharge CWB).
On the opposite, you still can recharge CBW after the end of your explore step (e. g. after the close location step), but then you can only examine (because you cannot reopen an explore phase).
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Am I the only one who thinks it's ever so slightly cheating to not say which step you're using the CB in?
I would have thought that technically you either use it in the explore step or you don't. If you use it in the explore step, you can't then move (for instance) if you don't like what you see. If you use it before your explore step you can't use the explore part of the power because it's not your explore step.
I'm all for little take-backs (especially when no new information has been revealed in the meantime), and all for not explicitly announcing what step I'm in until it matters, but deliberately not saying what step I'm in until information is revealed which might change a decision I should have made earlier would cross a line for me.
Of course what you can do, guilt free, is use it at the start of your turn, forfeiting the explore from the CB itself, then choose to either move or use your free explore (that you would have lost otherwise anyway) after that. Which works out the same anyway. Though personally I'd almost always explore (free+blind) first, and then use it to scout+explore again anyway. Don't want to waste explores!
Yes, it is cheesy, but rule wice it should be ok, unless there will be errata to the rules that prevent that. There allways has been differences between what game developer means and how the players use cards :)
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Yes, it is cheesy, but rule wice it should be ok, unless there will be errata to the rules that prevent that. There allways has been differences between what game developer means and how the players use cards :)
I don't really get you at all. Cheesy would mean it's taking advantage of a loophole in the rules. But there's no loophole in the rules. The rules imply that at any given time you're either in the explore phase or you're not. The rules in no way allow you to be in Schrödinger's turn-phase. So rules-wise it's not in the least bit ok at all.
The thing it's taking advantage of is a loophole in the shorthand we use to play practically. The shorthand I mean is that, rather than sit there saying "I now enter the move phase. I choose not to move. I now enter the explore phase" like idiotic robots, we just say what we're doing, and the phase is implied. Which is fine and necessary most of the time.
But the fact that there's a loophole in a system of shorthand which is entirely outside the scope of the rulebook to begin with doesn't somehow make it become acceptable within the rules of the game. It's up to the players to realise that their shorthand doesn't work in this case and be more explicit about it.
To be clear, I wouldn't exactly be losing any sleep over playing this wrong. But I'd make at least some effort to do it right once I'm aware of it. And everyone is also welcome play their own game that's similar to Pathfinder ACG but modified so that the most convenient shorthand always plays correctly, I'm not going to stop them. I just think it's worth pointing out when it happens.
That is the Main reason we have these discussions!
Some wording leaves open some different predictions etc. I think that the purpose of all this is in the long run to make the rules and wording easier to predict, but there aleåways will be times when rule layering is needed...
It can be problem in competative games, in coops not so much!
Am I the only one who thinks it's ever so slightly cheating to not say which step you're using the CB in?
I don't think at all it's cheating because :
A) It doesn't give you any advantageB) It speeds up play and reduce downtime(*), especially in large groups (we usually play with 5 players)
C) Someone can always react and say : stop, before you do that and skip to whatever step, I would like to play whatever power/card in whatever previous step.
We just rule that you obviously cannot at all backtrack when a step is clearly started (typical example if you just revealed a previously hidden card from the blessing deck, a location, your deck, your hand...).
(*) The following steps for example can usually be skipped without consequence:
- Give a card stepn (95% of time)
- Move step (50% of time in our experience)
- Close location step (95% of time)
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Am I the only one who thinks it's ever so slightly cheating to not say which step you're using the CB in?I don't think at all it's cheating because :
A) It doesn't give you any advantage
I'm specifically talking about cases where it does give you an advantage though, that's my whole point.
It's not entirely such a case here, because there is another way of achieving the same outcome (as I described already). I'm mostly responding to this comment (plus the replies that implicitly accept it):
you can use it at any phase, but if you use it to explore, it starts the explore phase.
Skipping ahead after having already played the card isn't a thing you can actually do. It works most of the time as shorthand, but this is a case where it doesn't.
I completely agree with Irgy here. It makes a difference in which phase you play the card, so you should announce how you use it beforehand if you want to play by the rules.
I don't have any example in my head where not announcing which step you are in when playing a card (providing it's valid) would have any impact.
Maybe some tricky case where you would actually be playing AGAINST the other players (and you could argue that the card played AGAINST you is not valid because you aren't yet/anymore in the step where it is valid to play it?).
So if you have such precise example, please give it. Else I don't see your point.
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I don't have any example in my head where not announcing which step you are in when playing a card (providing it's valid) would have any impact.
Maybe some tricky case where you would actually be playing AGAINST the other players (and you could argue that the card played AGAINST you is not valid because you aren't yet/anymore in the step where it is valid to play it?).
So if you have such precise example, please give it. Else I don't see your point.
I'll try and spell out the example here more clearly:
If you play Clockwork Butterfly at the start of your turn, you can move to another location if you don't like the card you examined, but you can't then use the CB's power to explore .
If you play Clockwork Butterfly in the explore phase, you can't move to another location, but you can use the CB's power to explore.
If you play Clockwork Butterfly without specifying the phase, then you can do both - if you don't like the card you see then declare it to have been the start of the turn and move, if you do like the card you see then declare it to have been the explore phase and explore.
As I've said there's no real advantage gained here, because the CB's explore forfeits your normal free explore anyway. But you could easily turn this into a real example if, for instance CB (or more to the point a card similar to CB) gave any sort of bonus on that explore, or if you'd forfeited your free explore already through some other means (or a scenario or location power etc.)
I feel like I'm making too big a deal about this for how much it actually matters, but I'm mostly just trying to clarify what I've said...
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I concur with the point that you should declare exactly what step you are in before you do something. I don't think your step should be like Schrodinger's Cat.
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Agreed. Specifically, if a player should reasonably have the expectation that their phase matters, then they should clarify where possible. I'm very careful about clarifying when I'm doing things before the end of my movement phase when playing as OA1 Estra, for example, since she has an ability that she may use at the end of her movement phase.
If you play Clockwork Butterfly without specifying the phase, then you can do both ...
I stand corrected. Indeed you have a valid example so in this case at least you should clearly state in which step you are before playing CB.
Good pick.
As I've said there's no real advantage gained here, because the CB's explore forfeits your normal free explore anyway. But you could easily turn this into a real example if, for instance CB (or more to the point a card similar to CB) gave any sort of bonus on that explore, or if you'd forfeited your free explore already through some other means (or a scenario or location power etc.)
An example where this is actually relevant is in Mummy's Mask if you had Curse of Daybane displayed next to your character (there may be other examples in other sets; I believe Wrath of the Righteous might have something that messes with your free explore as well but don't recall it offhand).