Is it me or is the envoy going to level off after 8, picking up level 8 abilities for the rest of their career until 20 assuming they aren't better off picking up the level 6 and 4 abilities they missed on the way up. Their different abilities don't seem to have any hidden synergy with each other, so is there any reason to stick with the class after level 8 or 10 or so?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I for one have had a lot of fun with high level envoys and have not noticed any serious disparities, though I've not had much play time at those levels and I've not made as close an examination as I suppose I could have.
In any case, I'll just leave these here. Perhaps they will aid in a comparison against non-envoys or multi-classed envoys.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well there's a couple of incentive to go higher than level 10.
- ''Inspiring boost'' scales on level.
- '' Don't quit '' let Envoy clear condition by spending a RP at level 12.
- ''Improved Hurry'' let Envoy spend RP to grant a standard action to an ally at level 12.
- ''Expertise'' goes up to 1d8+2 at level 13.
Beside i think there's a lot of cool improvisations and i don't think i'd have enough of 4-5 with an Envoy to be satisfied. That being said, i think envoys benefits from a dip into Blitz Soldier, for the profiencies, initiave bonus, speed increase, and the saves boost.
If i had to build an effective envoy up to level, i'd got 18 Envoy/1 Soldier(Blitz)/Solarian 1. Soldier for the reasons i listed above, and solarian for the extra 1 AC from Solar armor and the Fort and Will bump. Which would put the character base saves at +10/+11/+15.
Ravingdork, I LOVE your characters! Keep it up!
Okay, well what about past 12? Starfinder is supposed to be balancedish till 20 and not go off the rails like pathfinder. Seems pretty lame if you're getting abilities balanced around level 12 at 18.
Well, inspiration still scale on level, you get more improvisations to choose and you won't have enough of 12 level to get them all.
At the top of me head i'd pick; Get'em, Improved Get'em, Inspiring boost, Don't quit, Hurry, Improved Hurry, Clever-thingy(the faint one), improved clever thingy. At thats those i remember right now, that make for 8 improvisation, which should be possible to have around level 14 if remember correctly. Then i'm sure there are other useful ones.
Now does it suck that those abilities doesn't scale past 12(baring inspiring boost)? Maybe. Thing is, i don't know what more they could add on some. For example '' Don't quit'' gives you the ability to clear conditions, i don't know how i'd make that scale more. For flat bonus abilities, like ''Get'em'' and its improved version, i think they gives enough, because bonus in starfinder are kinda rare and monsters ACs are generally balanced around player to hit bonus so the chance of hitting them at CR=LVL are roughly 50%. Si a 5%/10% increase isn't that bad.
That being said, i think it can be entirely possible to make an effective Envoy 8-10-12-13/SomethingX. You probably won't be as effective of a support/skiller, and you'll miss on some cool abilities, but if the character is well built why not
I suspect they remain mechanically sound at most levels. Starfinder is finely tuned, mathematically speaking.
What I fear, is that they are not terribly interesting past a certain point.
Now that i have access to my book and can add those to the list of nice inspirations.
- Dispiriting Taunt is nice a nice way to inflict save penalties on your ennemies, that's nice if your use reflex based weapon, or if you have caster in your group.
- Quick Dispiriting Taunt is pretty good if you use Dispiriting Taunt
- Universal Expression, is a must have if you don't know a lot of language.
- Watch your Step: +2 reflex to an ally within 60 feet as a reaction is not half-bad
- Long-Range improvisation improves your improvisations range by 30 feet, that's nice in a ranged-based game.
- Watch Out gives +4 Ac to an ally agaisn't a shot as a reaction, it make them prone, which is good if that ally is getting shot more than once and at level 8 you can spend a RP to avoid making your ally prone, having the option doesn't hurt.
-Clever Improvisation is godsent to prevent you from running to quickly out of RP.
- Heads up is pretty cool if you're good at perception and your Soldier/Solarian is not.
- Sustained Determination is a nice way to help your Tank keeps it's Resolve Point to regen Stamina, and with Clever Improvisation it has a ratio of 1 for 1.
Now i agree that some of the improvisations are incredibly situational, which is why i haven't listed them, but it's still there if needs be.
So quickly, if i were to make a list for 20 level of Envoy probably go with;
1: Inspiring Boost
2: Get'Em
4: Hurry
6: Improved Get'em
8: Don't quit
10: Clever faint/Dispiriting Taunt (Depending on your group composition)
12: Quick Faint/Quick taunt
14: Improved Hurry
16: Watch out/Watch your step
18: Universal Expression
20: Long range Improvisation
And then i'm out of improvisations and i'd like very much to have more, this probably having to do with the fact that i'm trying to have the cake and to eat it too though :P.
With those improvisation, most of the rounds my envoy would be attacking with an heavy weapon using Clever Faint as part a standard action and improved Get'Em as a move action or Using Improved Get'Em as part of a standard action and Dispiriting Taunt as part of a move action. The rest is situational, but it can get quite handy.
What I fear, is that they are not terribly interesting past a certain point.
I agree and disagree at the same time. Well first, i mean interest is subjective, so i can't really argue with what people finds interesting and not.
On the other side, i think the problem some might have with the Envoy is more perceived than real thanks to his special abilities choice stopping at level 8 and those abilities scaling up to level 12.
Some may think it's a problem, but i think it's pretty cool on the contrary, it let envoys focus on what abilities they wanna focus first and then they can pick the other ones later, and like i showed, you can't have them all. Granted if you're not interested in those abilities, the ''expertise'' might be a small incentive to keep leveling envoy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Always kinda thought that there is some potential in making a melee Envoy with Not in the Face!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Always kinda thought that there is some potential in making a melee Envoy with Not in the Face!
Add ''duck Under'' and improved combat maneuver(repositioning) and that would make for a funny build!
Add ''duck Under'' and improved combat maneuver(repositioning) and that would make for a funny build!
Throw on some Coordinated Shot, too.
[to enemy]"Please don't hit me! Oh by Abadar, I'm sorry!"
[to allies]"Would somebody shoot this guy? GET 'EM!"
At the top of me head i'd pick; Get'em, Improved Get'em, Inspiring boost, Don't quit, Hurry, Improved Hurry, Clever-thingy(the faint one), improved clever thingy. At thats those i remember right now, that make for 8 improvisation, which should be possible to have around level 14 if remember correctly. Then i'm sure there are other useful ones.
Improved get em (attack)
Clever attack is a standard actionThey both do more or less the same thing and i don't see how to get them to work together.
Improved Get ’Em (Ex)
Your morale bonus from get ’em increases to +2.
Improved Get'em lets you both do normal Get'em at a +2 and also do Improved Get'em as a part of a Standard attack. So you do Get'em as a move (with +2) and then Clever Attack for flat-footed and get both the +2 to your attack and the -2 to their AC.
Improved Get'em lets you both do normal Get'em at a +2 and also do Improved Get'em as a part of a Standard attack. So you do Get'em as a move (with +2) and then Clever Attack for flat-footed and get both the +2 to your attack and the -2 to their AC.Improved Get ’Em (Ex)
Your morale bonus from get ’em increases to +2.
How do you add the clever attack? Get em only lasts the one round. Clever attack is a standard action (and they both functionally do the same thing)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How do you add the clever attack? Get em only lasts the one round. Clever attack is a standard action (and they both functionally do the same thing)
You can use clever attack as part of an attack(Standard action) and you can then use improved Get'em as part of a move action, because improved Get'em increase Get'Em bonus to +2, you're not forced to use it as part of an attack. Or if you prefer you could say that Get'Em bonus increase to +2 when you get the improved version.
So either ways, you're attacking once in a round while inflicting the flat footed condition on your target, which lower it's AC by 2 and you're using your move action to increase your ally bonus to hit by 2 against that same target(or another one if you wish.) All this basically let you attack an ennemy once while increasing your party chance to hit that target by 20%. (or it increase the chance to hit two different target by 10% while letting you attack one of them).
So because you only get a single attack i recommand Envoy to use unwieldy weaponry.
The problem with inflicting the flat footed condition is that the opperative is probably doing the same thing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's assuming A-There is an operative in your group (there isn't always) and B-The operative and you haven't already had a conversation about this and they started inflicting Off-Target or some other debilitation (Debilitating Trick) with trick attack instead.
Up until fourth level, the Operative is only making the target Flat-footed for their own attack. After 4th level, they can make them Flat-footed or off target or some other condition for everyone.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, inspired by Algarik, a hilarious 8th level Envoy build:
1 Get 'Em! Improv, Bluff Expertise, and Coordinated Shot feat
2 Not in the Face! Improv
3 Convincing Liar Talent and Imp. Combat Maneuver (Reposition)
4 Duck Under Improv
5 Unfriendly Fire feat and Intimidate Expertise
6 Draw Fire Improv
7 Menacing Gaze or Rattling Presence Talent
8 Improved Get'Em!
Basically stand next to enemies complaining about how unfair life is. Most turns will just be Not in the Face! and Get 'Em! (total +3 to hit at 8th level on an adjacent enemy) But when necessary, full defense in order to shift the enemy to arrange for flanking with Duck Under (and a +12 to that roll).
If properly behind an enemy as cover, and there are a bunch of enemies shooting, Draw Fire and react with an Unfriendly Fire when one of them misses.
If you can't get up to an enemy in time to work your tricks, try to give them Shaken with Intimidate.
After 8th level? I dunno. Grab up Solarian 2 for Radiation so the guy standing next to you gets Sickened, too. Maybe that's too much :D
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's assuming A-There is an operative in your group (there isn't always)
Right sometimes there's multiple opperatives :)
and B-The operative and you haven't already had a conversation about this and they started inflicting Off-Target or some other debilitation (Debilitating Trick) with trick attack instead.
The bad guys seem to have so much hit and recovering stamina after a fight is such a given that trying to stack hit penalties doesn't seem worth it
Up until fourth level, the Operative is only making the target Flat-footed for their own attack. After 4th level, they can make them Flat-footed or off target or some other condition for everyone.
You probably have get em and shake it off until then anyway. The combo can't come online until you get at least one of the improveds anyway.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
and B-The operative and you haven't already had a conversation about this and they started inflicting Off-Target or some other debilitation (Debilitating Trick) with trick attack instead.The bad guys seem to have so much hit and recovering stamina after a fight is such a given that trying to stack hit penalties doesn't seem worth it
Well 10% increase defense isn't that bad has monster to hit bonus are scale around expected player AC for their level and it's useful for other things, such as saves penalty. Beside, if someone in your group is already inflicting off-target or Flat footed, might as well take that or you'll lose your move action doing nothing instead, as Improved Get'Em requiers you to use a standard action for an attack.
Up until fourth level, the Operative is only making the target Flat-footed for their own attack. After 4th level, they can make them Flat-footed or off target or some other condition for everyone.You probably have get em and shake it off until then anyway. The combo can't come online until you get at least one of the improveds anyway.
That proves my point, because their's a lot of improvisation Envoys needs to perfom all their tricks, they need a lot more than 8-12 level to perform well. Now like i said previously, if these abilities doesn't interest you, then yeah there's little incentive to stay into that class beside the scale bonus from expertise and the scaling you get from inspiring boost.
EDIT: Ah Geez! Dracomicron i just saw your post, i can't respond to it right now, i'm at work, but i'll be sure to comment it later, it looks hilarious!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
EDIT: Ah Geez! Dracomicron i just saw your post, i can't respond to it right now, i'm at work, but i'll be sure to comment it later, it looks hilarious!
I'm looking over my SFS boons, and I'm thinking, if I try the Loudly Complaining Envoy, it'll be a Wrikreechee. Their bonus to cover should apply to hiding behind enemies, and... oh god, now I can't get Dr. Zoidberg out of my head... Whoop whoop whoop!
Don't mind me, I'm out for a scuttle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's amazing. Do it. Do it tonight.
I don't even know when I would get time to play (thinks up a name) Dr. Voidstein. My only upcoming SFS is Half-Alive Streets, and I have to do that with Zoggy at this point, because he's almost level 5 and currently missing an arm.
And then I have my 1st level Ryphorian mystic and Nuar technomancer. Too many characters!
That proves my point
It does not remotely prove your point.
There is no way it can possibly be read as proving your point.You want to do a combo That takes till level 8 to pull off. The operative will make it obsolete at level 4. That means that the combo is pointless to go for, since there's no level where you have it and the operative doesn't.
Well 10% increase defense isn't that bad has monster to hit bonus are scale around expected player AC
I don't think thats really the case for fights that matter. Bosses seem to have more than enough hit.
Even IF you accept that premise a 10% reduction is not very helpful. Its really only useful at the Dead/die and yes/no on needing to rest for staminia recovery levels. It definitely won't keep you off that second one.
because there's a lot of improvisation Envoys needs to perfom all their tricks
You cannot do all of them. By 10th level you have improved get em and hurry (If you want damage reduction? Give your tank a free guarded step so he doesn't get full attacked)
Your move and standard actions are spoken for. After that you're selecting between different tricks, and your second best choice of trick at that, not adding them together. Adding more tricks is very meh once you have a bottleneck at your actions.
Draconomicron, your envoy build is just pure awesomeness! I don’t know how much it would fare in an actual games, but on paper it look funny as hell to play and it certainly make for a nice and unconventional tank. The doctor Zoidberg inspiration is icing on the cake! Well done sir!
EDIT: Oh i just thought about that, you could pick Improved unarmed strike feat to fight people off with your pincer! :D
It does not remotely prove your point.
There is no way it can possibly be read as proving your point.
Well, you did ask for reasons to keep leveling beyond level 12, the more abilities you need, the higher level you'll need to possess. I'll conceed that this does not proves my point, but it support it.
You want to do a combo That takes till level 8 to pull off. The operative will make it obsolete at level 4. That means that the combo is pointless to go for, since there's no level where you have it and the operative doesn't.
You can mix Get'em with clever attack as early as level 4 as well. Which mean you'll be handing +3 bonus to hit to everyone, it's not bad. Besides, I’ve seen somewhere that using trick attack for Operative actually lower their DPR past some point. For Envoy you're not lowering yours because you're already using both your action to help you're group the best way you can.
I don't think thats really the case for fights that matter. Bosses seem to have more than enough hit.
Even IF you accept that premise a 10% reduction is not very helpful. Its really only useful at the Dead/die and yes/no on needing to rest for staminia recovery levels. It definitely won't keep you off that second one.
I did some quick math to show that the 10% reduction is always there, there isn't a case were bosses gets a superior bonus to hit than your total KAC, which means if you succeed at dispiriting taunt you always decrease the enemy chance to hit you by 10%. Bear in mind that this is against a basic Dex build without any boost, the chances to hit a heavy armored tank specialized for defense would be even lower.
Lvl 5 Average AC For Dex Build: 26KAC, 24EAC (Lashunta MicrocordIII, Dex 20)
High Bonus to hit for a Cr 8 with Combattant Array: +19
Chance to hit KAC: 65
Chance to Hit EAC: 75
Lvl 10 Average Ac for Dex build: KAC 29, EAC 28 (Freebooter Armor III, Dex 22)
High Bonus to hit for a Cr 13 with Combattant Array: +26
Chance to hit KAC: 85%
Chance to Hit EAC: 90%
Lvl 15
Average Ac for Dex build: KAC 36, EAC 34 (Carbon Skin, Diamond, Dex 24)
High Bonus to hit for a Cr 18 with Combattant Array: +32
Chance to hit KAC: 80%
Chance to Hit EAC: 90%
lvl 20
Average AC for Dex build: KAC 40 EAC 40 (Hardlight Series(Specialist), Dex 28)
High Bonus to hit for a Cr 23 with Combattant Array: +37
Chance to hit KAC: 85%
Chance to Hit EAC: 85%
So Would the 10% be useful? Well maybe. If you stack this 10% reduction with the 20% reduction to hit from cover and another 20% reduction to hit thanks to the boss full attacking, you’re looking at a 50% reduced chance to get hit. If you couple that with watch out you can reduce the enemy chance of hitting at range by an extra 20%, bringing the total to 30% reduction just by yourself.
Furthermore, if you only rely on resolve to manage your stamina, you’re going to run out quick, between abilities that cost resolve, healing your stamina back, stabilizing (which cost ¼ of your total RP) and getting back up with ‘’staying in the fight’’. Again 10% decreased chance to hit help managing that.
But that’s not all, shaken gives other penalty to saves, ability checks and skill checks, granted the last two aren’t that useful in the midst of a battle. If you got a control spellcaster in your group, or anyone that use Reflex save weapon to lower your target chance to pass them by another 10%.
You cannot do all of them.
Just like a can’t caster cast all its spell at once, but having choice make them less of a one trick pony.
By 10th level you have improved get em and hurry (If you want damage reduction? Give your tank a free guarded step so he doesn't get full attacked)
It’s all good, but against range Hurry won’t be useful every round. But let’s say your main improvisation are going to be Improved Get’Em and Hurry and you avoid Dispiriting taunt and Clever Faint combos. That would mean you’d need 4 inspirations to get your combo going at level 10 out of six. That mean you get two ‘’free’’ inspiration; level 1 and level 6 respectively.
Let’s say you pick those inspiration:
1: Get’Em
2: Don’t Quit
4: Hurry
6: Clever Improvisation
8: Improved Get’Em.
10: Improved Hurry
There’s still place in your build for 5 improvisations and there’s a lot of cool ones I listed: Inspiring Boost, Watch out, Watch your steps, Long range improvisation (Envoys are stationary it’s nice to have a bit of extra range), heads up, sustained determination, etc.
So, you could go with something like:
12: Watch out
14: Long Ranged Improvisation
16: Watch your Steps
18: Heads Ups
20: Sustained Determination
So, Let’s say you take that build and you’re level 20. You get:
3 Stantard action improvisations: Improved Get’Em, don’t quit, Improved Hurry (if you use it to gift standard action)
3 Move action improvisations: Get’Em, Sustained Determination, Improved Hurry
3 Reaction improvisations: Watch out, Watch your steps, Heads up.
So yeah of course you can’t use them all at the same time, but apart from your main one, you don’t need to and they still remain useful. The two others helps with your resolve management and your range, which can’t be bad.
"Do you gain ANYTHING" is a mathematicians answer. Technically correct, completely devoid of meaning, and avoiding the question. Are you gaining enough?
I think the answer is pretty clearly no and thats bad class design.
You cannot use them at the same time, which means you're grabbing a little bit of versatility when (especially from 12 to 20) you should be increasing your power and you're not. The opperative becomes a human(oid) machine gun , the mechanic has level 14 abilities.
"Useful" is not a good metric at level 12. You should be )_#*$#$ing awesome.
Silly me! What was i thinking strolling troughs the forum right before bed. Now i won't be able to sleep until i respond :P
"Do you gain ANYTHING" is a mathematicians answer. Technically correct, completely devoid of meaning, and avoiding the question. Are you gaining enough?
I think the answer is pretty clearly no and thats bad class design
At this point, i think our disagreement are entirely subjective. We both got access to the numbers, but in the end we like it or not. IMO the reason that feels like Envoy stop stacking, it's because it's abilities stop improvise in raw power at level 12. But honestly i don't think it's a problem, because those abilities that cap around 12 couldn't really do more. Lets look at those:
Don't quit: It let you clear conditions for a Resolve point. I don't get what more you could hope for. Maybe a multi clear around level 18? Would that be too powerful, i don't know.
Improved Hurry: Granting an action for an equal action is pretty good. Especially when combined with caster, that's just nasty.
Now for inspirations that stack:
Inspiring Boost: Scales up to 20.
Expert attack: Well that one too scale up to 20, cause it scale of Expertise.
For combos:
Watch out+Dispiriting taunt = 30% less chances to get hit in range for all shots, because the ally fall prone. Bonus points if your ally takes ''kip up'' feat to stand up as swift action.
Clever attack+Get Em: +20% increased chances of hitting, which his huge for Starfinders.
Dispiriting Taunt+Improved Get'em: Well granted, it's not a stack, but it buff your team while nerfing the ennemies, which create a ''gap''.
But at this point i know i'm starting to repeat myself sorry about that just wanna make sure i'm well understood.
You cannot use them at the same time, which means you're grabbing a little bit of versatility when (especially from 12 to 20) you should be increasing your power and you're not.
I agree and disagree. I do agree that envoys can are lacking in the damage department but envoys don't shine by themselves, it's a support class. They remind me a lot of the warlord class in 4E.
As for the action action limitation, like i said earlier, you don't need to do it all at the same time, all you need to get is a decent ''normal round'' combos(like the manies example i've given), the rest is situational, but never the less important.
Don't Quit won't be used until someone gets a condition, but you'll be glad you have when your tank get stunned.
You're probably gonna be using Hurry at lot to set your tank into position, but your Dragon gland user is gonna be happy when you'll gift him Resolve point so he can breath back right again.
Your Tank is gonna be glad to have that +4 AC when a full Squad is gonna be firing at him.
You're gonna be happy you took long range improvisation once you realize you would be one move action from being able to use your abilities.
Another thing that might make them seems a bit dull to you is the fact hat Starfinder is Shy on handing out big bonus from single source. I haven't found any spell that gave a bonus to hit yet, i could have missed it thought.
Beside we were only talking about improvisations, Expertise still stack all the way up to 20 at 1d8+4. We must not forget that envoys are also skill monkeys and skill check are hard to pull in Starfinder, they will need all they can get.
The cap stone is also very nice. It basically let spam a 1 resolve cost ability all day long and let you roll an extra 2d8 on your expertise.
The opperative becomes a human(oid) machine gun , the mechanic has level 14 abilities.
"Useful" is not a good metric at level 12. You should be )_#*$#$ing awesome.
The operative becomes a small-arms machine gun, which is the only thing that keeps him from becoming irrelevant DPR wise. But i won't argue that envoys are more interesting or not than Operative, it's too subjective. They don't haves the same combat role. Operatives are supposed to dish-out damage, while the envoys will increase their party average damage. Envoys also don't need the extra attack as they won't be able to use it while using their abilities.
On the Skill department it's really a matter of quality vs quantity. Envoys will be better at their specialized skills, but operatives are gonna beat them in every skills they are not specialized. But yeah, to be honest i find operatives to be a bit overtune, 10+int skill point, with +6 in every skill and ini is a bit much.
For multiclassing after level 12-13, i guess Soldier could make up for a good secondary class there's some cool gear boost they could pick-up with seven levels, but then they will sacrifice supporting abilities for a little bit of extra damage. I don't think other class would be that useful as they all scale on their own, Soldier is the class that can avoid scaling with some fighting style like Arcane Assailant, blitz, guard, Hit-and-run and Sharpshooter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing that I think is getting buried is that the DCs for Envoy abilities are based partially on level, are they not? I can't think of a lot of them that use saving throws (other than Not in the Face!, which I was just tinkering with), so maintaining effectiveness of current powers relies on continuing to get Envoy abilities.
Having an embarrassment of riches when it comes to Envoy options at higher levels isn't really a bad thing. Like, we don't criticize casters for having too many spells (and they have WAY more options than Envoys do, though they can't use them as often).
Not all groups will have both an Envoy and an Operative, especially in Starfinder Society, and a lot of the time the Operative will want to use a different Debilitating Trick.
Draconomicron, your envoy build is just pure awesomeness! I don’t know how much it would fare in an actual games, but on paper it look funny as hell to play and it certainly make for a nice and unconventional tank. The doctor Zoidberg inspiration is icing on the cake! Well done sir!
Thank you! *bows*
Not a lot of room in the early build for Improved Unarmed Attack, but it is also a funny idea. To refer to a different Futurama character, "BACK OFF OR YOU GET THE CLAMPS!" Actually the build I was pondering personally had a level or two of Solarian for Advanced Weapon Proficiency, so he could use a Taclash to Reposition with Reach. It would also help if he eventually got Stand Still.
I, also, am not sure of how well it would play on the table. The Wrikreechee unfortunately has low Dexterity, which forces a tradeoff between Dex and Cha... and Not in the Face! relies on Cha for the save DC, so you're trading a point of Dex AC for potentially giving one opponent -4 to hit you.
BUT! One place where the build would particularly shine is alongside a dedicated tank against a single boss-type creature. A lot of time there isn't a second melee character to provide flanks, but with this guy, he's naturally in there to give another +2 to his buddy. Flank + Improved Get 'Em is +4, and if there's an actual melee fighter involved, the Envoy is unlikely to get attacked, so that frees up the Not in the Face! move action for a taunt or an actual attack (heavens forfend!).
Anyway, someday I'll try it.
. But honestly i don't think it's a problem, because those abilities that cap around 12 couldn't really do more. Lets look at those:
Really?
get em could increase the bonus (either scaling on its own or with an improved improved get em)
Hurry up could improve the action economy and or affect multiple targets
Shake it off could improve the action economy and or affect multiple targets and or clear more conditions.
Inspiring boost in practice doesn't scale. For starters Spending 1 resolve point to rest at higher levels becomes less and less of your resolve pool to the point that its trivial. Secondly the damage increases WAY faster than your Staminia recovery.
Dropping the enemy a little sooner with an attack is the most effective form of combat healing in starfinder.
Watch out+Dispiriting taunt = 30% less chances to get hit in range for all shots, because the ally fall prone. Bonus points if your ally takes ''kip up'' feat to stand up as swift action.
That is not bonus points. The slight damage reduction for a huge loss of action economy makes kip up a feat tax for that combo to work on your allies at all. Its a feat tax you can't even pay yourself. Its something I'd try in a mischief of ysoki but we're well past situational at that point.
I agree and disagree. I do agree that envoys can are lacking in the damage department but envoys don't shine by themselves, it's a support class
Really? Am I arguing that the envoy should be doing all the things?
No. No I am not. So why are you arguing as if thats what I'm saying?
Nothing past level 12 makes the Envoys companions shine all that bright either. You can put a fusia spotlight on your companions instead of a purple one but thats about it.
get em could increase the bonus (either scaling on its own or with an improved improved get em)
Well, i guess they could have add another +1 around level 16-18, for a total of +3, i don't know how that would mess up balance though.
Hurry up could improve the action economy and or affect multiple targets
You can already make your caster cast twice in a round, anything better than that would make that ability incredibly broken. I guess they could have made that as part of a capstone at best.
Shake it off could improve the action economy and or affect multiple targets and or clear more conditions.
I guess you meant ''Don't Quit'' as ''Shake it off'' isn't an improvisation? I'll assume so. But yeah, i already said something along those line, in my previous answer. They could also had created a ''quick don't quit.''
Inspiring boost in practice doesn't scale. For starters Spending 1 resolve point to rest at higher levels becomes less and less of your resolve pool to the point that its trivial. Secondly the damage increases WAY faster than your Staminia recovery.
Agreed, Inspiring boost could scale a bit better.
Dropping the enemy a little sooner with an attack is the most effective form of combat healing in starfinder.
Thing is, there's almost no way to increase your damage other than packing big guns with Envoy, multiclassing might gives you a little increase in chances to hit, but you won't get much more out of it and you'll lose in versatility.
That is not bonus points. The slight damage reduction for a huge loss of action economy makes kip up a feat tax for that combo to work on your allies at all. Its a feat tax you can't even pay yourself. Its something I'd try in a mischief of ysoki but we're well past situational at that point.
Guns are everywhere in Starfinder, getting +4 AC against all ranged shot can save your ass and a lot of damage. Beside, you get pently of feats in Starfinder and Kip Up is useful outside that combo.
Really? Am I arguing that the envoy should be doing all the things?No. No I am not. So why are you arguing as if thats what I'm saying?
Didn't meant to put word in your mouth, i must have got confused with the comparison to operatives quad attack, my apology.
Nothing past level 12 makes the Envoys companions shine all that bright either. You can put a fusia spotlight on your companions instead of a purple one but thats about it.
I'll take the blame but we haven't been arguing on exactly the same thing. I've been trying to answer ''Are Envoy levels useful past 12''? My answers was yes, they are as they gain in versatility, skill expertise and and they can pull of more combos, or make sure their combos get better range.
When in fact your seemed to be looking for something along the line of '' Are Envoy scaling well enough past twelves''? Well i don't know, some abilities could benefits from some improvement (inspiring boost, Don't quit and maybe Get'Em). But again i think most of the scaling feeling problems we perceive are due to envoys best improvisations being accessible at level 8.