Brotter24
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So I had created a Catfolk Slayer that took the Ranger Natural Weapon Style to increase his claw damage, after having taken Catfolk Exemplar to further increase it, and the intent was to mix this with Two Weapon Fighting to get some rather nice damage output with Catfolk Pounce and Sneak Attack. Recently had a friend tell me that you can't use natural weapons, like claws, with iterative attacks and Two Weapon Fighting.
Is this correct?
| Derklord |
The relevant rule is this: "You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks)." (CRB pg. 182).
The TWF rules are a bit less explicit, but they state "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon." (CRB pg. 202), and you can't really "wield" a natural attack. The CRB always presumes basic (human) characters - for instance, the natural attack rules further state "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack." As you can see, they use "weapon" to mean manifactured weapon, even though they call natural attacks "natural weapons".
You can still do what you want, though, by equipping a pair of Claw Blades - these turn your claws into manufactured weapons, but they still count as claws for feats like Claw Pounce. Improved Natural Attack would not work, though (not a big loss as it's only a +1 average damage per attack) - at this point, you don't gain much from the natural attack ranger style, using two-weapon fighting style would be vastly superior!
| LordKailas |
Some things to consider.
If you take a a level in monk you could combine it with feral combat training in order to use your claws with the various style feats.
Alternatively, if you take the feats multiattack and a level in Snakebite striker brawler. You could do two weapon fighting with your improved unarmed strikes, while also attacking with both claws every round at a -2. While not missing out on sneak attack for multi-classing.
| Scott Wilhelm |
Some things to consider.
If you take a a level in monk you could combine it with feral combat training in order to use your claws with the various style feats.
And if you make Monk your Favored Class, your Claw Damage will increase faster than your Unarmed Strike Damage, +1 every 2 levels. MUSD increases more slowly.
Generally, Natural Attacks don't mix with 2 Weapon Fighting. You have to use weapons to 2wf, and weapons spoil natural attacks. Your Claws will suffer a -5 to attack and your ST bonus to Damage is cut in half. The suggestion to use Claw Blades I think fixes this problem.
Generally, this minmaxer's choice for upping the Damage on a Natural Attack build is to get more natural attacks. Get a Bite Attack, lots of ways to do this. Get a Gore Attack: acquire an Animal Mask or a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. Dip a level in White Haired Witch and get a Hair Attack. Then you start inflicting your Sneak Attack Damage with every hit from your many, many attacks.
| Derklord |
Generally, Natural Attacks don't mix with 2 Weapon Fighting. You have to use weapons to 2wf, and weapons spoil natural attacks. Your Claws will suffer a -5 to attack and your ST bonus to Damage is cut in half.
It's also strictly a "win more" - investing recources into this makes you a) more dependant on full attacks than you already are, b) even more vulnerable to damage reduction, c) more reliant on Sneak Attack, and also d) only helps against low-AC enemies. In short, it only helps when you don't have any problems in the first place.
Slayer with TWF Ranger Combat Style is one of the few classes that can make TWF work, and Claw Pounce helps with one of the biggest weaknesses.
If you take a a level in monk you could combine it with feral combat training in order to use your claws with the various style feats.
More important, it allows one to use the chosen natural attack with an ordinary full attack. It's only one bonus attack, and does cost a level, but without the normal -2 penalty TWF brings, presuming unMonk, and saves up on feats.
| Scott Wilhelm |
Scott Wilhelm wrote:Generally, Natural Attacks don't mix with 2 Weapon Fighting. You have to use weapons to 2wf, and weapons spoil natural attacks. Your Claws will suffer a -5 to attack and your ST bonus to Damage is cut in half.It's also strictly a "win more" - investing recources into this makes you a) more dependant on full attacks than you already are, b) even more vulnerable to damage reduction, c) more reliant on Sneak Attack, and also d) only helps against low-AC enemies. In short, it only helps when you don't have any problems in the first place.
Slayer with TWF Ranger Combat Style is one of the few classes that can make TWF work, and Claw Pounce helps with one of the biggest weaknesses.
It seems to me like a Sneak-Natural Attack build is viable, though.
The Claw Blade thing might help with DR: the user can have some silver, cold iron, and adamantine claw blades: right tool for the job. The Claws themselves can do Slashing or Blunt Damage. Feral Combat Training has been brought up. If the OP also took Snake Style, then those Claws can also do Piercing Damage.
The Natural Attack build concept I am most sanguine about though relies on Warpriest and applying Sacred Weapon Damage to your many natural Attacks. The Cleric Spell lists have lots of options for bypassing DR, and Warpriests also have Class Abilities that do that.
| Derklord |
I was posting under the presumption that the OP wants to focus on the catfolk's claws. Most notably, Claw Pounce really only works with claws.
It seems to me like a Sneak-Natural Attack build is viable, though.
Certainly, but that wasn't my point. The "win more" stuff was about combining TWF with natural attacks - something I consider a dangerous overspecialization, in other words, an extreme one-trick pony.
At some point, adding more punch to your one trick doesn't help, and the goal must be to make this one trick usuable in more situations. For similar reasons, I'd advice against investing recources into sneak attack - the last thing you want to do is add another condition to your already fairly conditional build.
| Scott Wilhelm |
I was posting under the presumption that the OP wants to focus on the catfolk's claws. Most notably, Claw Pounce really only works with claws.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:It seems to me like a Sneak-Natural Attack build is viable, though.Certainly, but that wasn't my point. The "win more" stuff was about combining TWF with natural attacks - something I consider a dangerous overspecialization, in other words, an extreme one-trick pony.
At some point, adding more punch to your one trick doesn't help, and the goal must be to make this one trick usuable in more situations. For similar reasons, I'd advice against investing recources into sneak attack - the last thing you want to do is add another condition to your already fairly conditional build.
Your concern is legit.
The suggestions about Claw Blades people have been making seem to have promise for offering ways to overcome Damage Reduction.
Many more creatures in Pathfinder than in Dungeons and Dragons are capable of suffering Sneak Attack Damage, but there are still some.
As to your point about situational, also a problem. You only get to do Sneak Attack Damage under certain situations: If you win Initiative and you can reach your opponent somehow, if you are Flanking, if you successfully Feint, etc. When I'm designing a Sneak Attack Character, I make sure I have enough tricks up my sleeve to reliably score SAD or just have other tricks up my sleeve!