Hi there,
Looking to preempt any rules complications/discussion with one of my players. He's looking to play an Enlightened Paladin / monk (probably Scaled Fist). The current RAW questions I have are:
- 1) Do the ki pools stack? This is broken down into two different stacking questions:
a) Do the number of ki points they have stack?
b) Does the paladin levels (which are counted as effective monk levels) stack with the monk levels to determine the pool/pools abilities?
My feeling on this is the answer is no, due to the FAQ.
- 2) Assuming two separate ki pools, can an Enlightened Paladin's ki pool be used to power monk's ki abilities, i.e. Flurry of Blows, Abundant Step, Cobra Breath?
- 3) Does the Enlightened Paladin's Confident Defense ability apply to Touch ac? Unlike the Monk/Unchained Monk's AC Bonus which specifically states that it applies to the Touch AC, Confident Defense does not. However it states that it adds it to the Dexterity bonus, which then arguably does get added to the Touch AC.
- 4) Given that a Scaled Fist's AC Bonus and an Enlightened Paladin's Confident Defense both provide increases to AC but use different mechanics (AC Bonus is untyped bonus, and Confident Defense is applying charisma to modify dexterity bonus), do they stack?
If there are any other potential rules issues that may come up with this particular combination then please feel free to add them.
1) It sounds like it doesn't stack so two pools
2) You should be able to use your ki pool to use ki abilities of any class
3) It adds to touch
4) I've heard they don't stack but I'm not sure :/
scaled fist is a great dip even if confident defense doesn't stack
they stack, one is an untyped bonus the other is a dodge so there is no conflict.
Lady-J wrote: they stack, one is an untyped bonus the other is a dodge so there is no conflict. It's not dodge...
Wolfiej wrote: Lady-J wrote: they stack, one is an untyped bonus the other is a dodge so there is no conflict. It's not dodge... it effectively is a dodge bonus, its just caped by armors max dex but otherwise functions as dodge(only applying to touch and normal ac and gets removed if you are denied dex)
Lady-J wrote: Wolfiej wrote: Lady-J wrote: they stack, one is an untyped bonus the other is a dodge so there is no conflict. It's not dodge... it effectively is a dodge bonus, its just caped by armors max dex but otherwise functions as dodge(only applying to touch and normal ac and gets removed if you are denied dex) No. It's not a dodge bonus. Dodge bonuses are clearly typed. While they share similarities there is clear differences because of the specifics of the rule requiring it to cap at the armour's max dexterity modifier.
The reason for the question is the point that it is not a clearly typed/untyped bonus. If it said "as a dodge bonus", or "as a deflection bonus", or better yet "as part of the dexterity modifier" then there would be no issue. It doesn't. All it states is:
an Enlightened paladin adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class.
There is no change in the bonus type indicated. It just chains the additions together.
From what I've seen from looking around various forums the disagreement comes down to whether the person counts the armour class calculation as a single score that the bonuses can be applied to, or whether it is a multiple part calculation which different bonuses can be applied to.
- If it's a multiple part calculation then it counts as part of the dexterity modifier as that is calculated as before calculating the AC which means a scaled fist/irorian (enlightened) paladin can effectively double stack their charisma bonus (dexterity type bonus and charisma type bonus).
- If it's a single calculation and applying the various bonuses together then it counts as an charisma type bonus which means it then doesn't stack as the scaled fist's AC Bonus ability is a charisma type bonus.
So you say it's a multiple part calculation, correct? I ask you then what other instances have you seen multiple part calculations like this? Where a bonus is added multiple times because its applied as part of specific bonuses in the formula. I'm looking for any supporting instances to establish a common trend.
Thunderlord wrote: 1) It sounds like it doesn't stack so two pools
2) You should be able to use your ki pool to use ki abilities of any class
3) It adds to touch
4) I've heard they don't stack but I'm not sure :/
scaled fist is a great dip even if confident defense doesn't stack
Thanks for the answers. It's a great dip but after looking at it if it doesn't stack then it's not quite as good as there is a fair bit of double up in abilities. Honestly if paladin had flurry then I don't think there would even be a reason to dip!
All of your Ki from different classes gets added to the same Ki pool, but you only use one ability modifier for Ki calculation.
Dajur wrote: All of your Ki from different classes gets added to the same Ki pool, but you only use one ability modifier for Ki calculation. Nope, only if one of your ki pool abilities says so (like how Ninja's does).
[quoute=Wolfiej]I ask you then what other instances have you seen multiple part calculations like this? Where a bonus is added multiple times because its applied as part of specific bonuses in the formula. Well, an enhancement bonus to natural armor bonus stacks with an enhancement bonus to armor bonus, even though both get added to AC in the end.
The problem is that Confident Defense has a weird wording. It's not a unique ablity (the Duelist prestige class does the same thing and probably served as the base for Iroran Paladin), but something adding to an ability modifier to X, instead of simply adding to X is still very unusual.
There is no 100% correct interpretation because the archetype ability does something not intended (and thus not really covered) by the rules. Technically, the way it's worded, the two abilities do stack. On the other hand, it's a highly redundant wording copied from a 3.5 prestige class, so ironingn out wiernesses is more fixing than nerfing.
1.) 2 separate Pools
2.) Yes
3.) Yes, it adds to your dex bonus to AC, so any situation you use your dex bonus in, you add the cha bonus as well
4.) They stack
1) looks pretty closed case, as the wording isn't there like it is for Ninja, though as above wording on the archetype in general is pretty poor. RAW it's a no, RAI who knows.
2)I don't know of anything to say otherwise, there isn't anything that ring fences Ki points, in the same way there is for spell slots(that i know of). So looks like a yes.
3)Yes, confident defense adjusts how the dexterity bonus to AC is calculated, resulting in it affecting touch AC. NOT to CMD however, as CMD specifically states dex bonus, and there is nothing in the Archetype that interacts with it.
4) I would read it as saying, calculate the AC type dexterity bonus using Dex bonus (if applicable) and 1 point of Charisma bonus per EC level. i.e
10 + Armour AC + Dex (Dex bonus + 1pCha) + deflection + insight +luck (and so fourth) + untyped CHA bonus from scaled monk.
Again as above, the wording is vague, but that is how I would read it. I don't think there is a definitive RAW on it sadly.
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