| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some archetypes can be "better" (more "optimal") with certain classes than others, but a lot depends on the concept, as well.
I've been looking into some combinations of race, theme, class, and archetype and have a few that might be interesting:
Dragonkin gladiator solarian (Skyfire centurion) still gets revelations at 2nd and 8th levels, as well as two zenith revelations at 10th (instead of 9th). The +4 Str, 10 ft reach, and flight helps make a pretty good melee combatant with a solar weapon, as well.
SRO roboticist soldier (star knight) looks like a pretty nice combination: Computers as a class skill, Integrated Equipment, Armor Mastery, Challenge, Crafting Savant to be able to craft level +1 items (armor, weapons, cybernetics) with max ranks in Engineering, and Holy Attack (as a Knight of Golarion). Possibly using the Arcane Assailant fighting style to focus on customization of equipment.
Vesk (for the Armor Savant benefit) space pirate exocortex mechanic (divine champion) can make a pretty decent combatant; trades their 2nd level trick for a scaling bonus to Will saves (where a mechanic is weak), their 4th level trick for the ability to bypass DR and energy resistances with all attacks vs. an opponent of a certain alignment axis, trades their 6th level trick for limited spellcasting (1st- or 2nd-level connection spell), and trades their 12th level trick for expanded spell selection (3rd- or 4th-level connection spell). The 8th, 10th, and 14th level tricks can be used on Overcharge (waiting that long is a bit painful, but the Technomantic Dabbler at 5th level for supercharge weapon may help fill in until then), Improved Overcharge, and Superior Overcharge. In combination with exocortex combat tracking and Sword and Pistol (12th level theme benefit), they can actually be decent at attacking with both a (non-operative) melee weapon and a small arm (Overcharged as a move action; a character counts as their own ally) in the same round; it would have been nicer if it were possible earlier, though.
Another one:
Draelik deathtouched mystic (Asmodeus, Overlord connection) star knight (Hellknight, Order of the Gate) with summon creature (Devil, multiple Devils from lower list, Inevitable, and Shadow Creature) as a spell known, a shadowstaff (spellthrower fusion on the lesser model; spellbane and spellthrower on the level 8 version), and Hellknight Plate (14 Str and Heavy Armor Proficiency at 1st).
Deathtouched really feels overtuned, from my experience. It's a weird theme that gives direct combat stuff. I get the feeling we'll be seeing on a LOT of characters purely for the combat side that most don't have.
I'm not a fan of the whole 'one size fits all' archtypes. Archtypes were fun in PF because they allowed characters to be more unique and specialize. Being tailored to a class allowed them to work with the types of difference you might want to see in that class.
In SF however, since everyone has to be able to take them and there is a static 'this is what you lose' they feel watered down, and fairly bland. Pact Worlds helps, but they just aren't worth taking, imo.
Prestige Classes in 3.5 where a mess, PF archtypes cleaned a lot of that up, but SF archtypes feel like a major misstep.
In SF however, since everyone has to be able to take them and there is a static 'this is what you lose' they feel watered down, and fairly bland. Pact Worlds helps, but they just aren't worth taking, imo.
Prestige Classes in 3.5 where a mess, PF archtypes cleaned a lot of that up, but SF archtypes feel like a major misstep.
Sounds like you lack hard data on that, though.
Sounds like you lack hard data on that, though.In SF however, since everyone has to be able to take them and there is a static 'this is what you lose' they feel watered down, and fairly bland. Pact Worlds helps, but they just aren't worth taking, imo.
Prestige Classes in 3.5 where a mess, PF archtypes cleaned a lot of that up, but SF archtypes feel like a major misstep.
I can safely say I would never take an Archetype (aside from maaaaaybe Star Knight) on a Solarion on account of everything you have to give up to do so. Not worth it.
Mystics who take Arcnanarium Sage actually gain more from the Archetype than they lose. Same for TM's that take Divine Disciple. The inverse is pretty much a wash, but not a bad idea. I think Star Knight is solid all around.
I've seen some interesting things done with Phrenic Adept and Starfinder Data Jockey.
While I don't think they all work for all classes in all cases, I kind of think that's the point. If they were all always decidedly better than their base class(es), then everyone would take them and there wouldn't be a point.
How about a softer approach to archetypes? Picking only the levels you choose, not all of them - would that make it better? Kinda like multiclassing.
I think we are still lacking higher level only archetypes, everything so far requires compromising way too soon.
And maybe more lower levels only, like the Starfinder Forerunner, or even tiny ones, with only one or two levels.
I've seen some interesting things done with Phrenic Adept and Starfinder Data Jockey.
A soldier phrenic adept is pretty decent (possibly with a korasha lashunta). It also works thematically with the Arcane Assailant fighting style.
I've been looking at the Starfinder data jockey and thinking about a pretty non-standard concept: skittermander tempered pilgrim solar weapon solarian (Starfinder data jockey) multiclassing (no more than 3-5 levels) in exocortex mechanic, focusing on Str, Dex, Int, and Cha; by 8th-9th level, looking at 20 Str, 16 Dex, 15 Int, and 16 Cha (increasing to 22 Str, 18 Dex, 17 Int, and 18 Cha at 10th level; personal upgrades +4 Str and +2 Dex) as a solarian 6/mechanic 2 or 3.
Sounds like you lack hard data on that, though.In SF however, since everyone has to be able to take them and there is a static 'this is what you lose' they feel watered down, and fairly bland. Pact Worlds helps, but they just aren't worth taking, imo.
Prestige Classes in 3.5 where a mess, PF archtypes cleaned a lot of that up, but SF archtypes feel like a major misstep.
No hard data is possible on an ought question so this isn't a valid criticism.
I've seen some interesting things done with Phrenic Adept and Starfinder Data Jockey.A soldier phrenic adept is pretty decent (possibly with a korasha lashunta). It also works thematically with the Arcane Assailant fighting style.
I've been looking at the Starfinder data jockey and thinking about a pretty non-standard concept: skittermander tempered pilgrim solar weapon solarian (Starfinder data jockey) multiclassing (no more than 3-5 levels) in exocortex mechanic, focusing on Str, Dex, Int, and Cha; by 8th-9th level, looking at 20 Str, 16 Dex, 15 Int, and 16 Cha (increasing to 22 Str, 18 Dex, 17 Int, and 18 Cha at 10th level; personal upgrades +4 Str and +2 Dex) as a solarian 6/mechanic 2 or 3.
Okay, I'm curious. What exactly is the draw of taking Mechanic levels or Data Jockey for a weapon Solarian, except to cripple the Solar Weapon and delay Revelations? Is it just for, like, Heavy Armor and Overclocking?
If I had to guess, it's to give the Solarian something to do besides DPR. Unless you're looking to play the face, skills are the area where the class is the weakest.
Though, if I were going to do more than a 1 level dip in mechanic, I'd probably go Drone Mech 3 and use the drone as a mobile heavy weapons turret while I meleed whatever it was to death from the front.
I've seen some interesting things done with Phrenic Adept and Starfinder Data Jockey.A soldier phrenic adept is pretty decent (possibly with a korasha lashunta). It also works thematically with the Arcane Assailant fighting style.
I've been looking at the Starfinder data jockey and thinking about a pretty non-standard concept: skittermander tempered pilgrim solar weapon solarian (Starfinder data jockey) multiclassing (no more than 3-5 levels) in exocortex mechanic, focusing on Str, Dex, Int, and Cha; by 8th-9th level, looking at 20 Str, 16 Dex, 15 Int, and 16 Cha (increasing to 22 Str, 18 Dex, 17 Int, and 18 Cha at 10th level; personal upgrades +4 Str and +2 Dex) as a solarian 6/mechanic 2 or 3.
Okay, I'm curious. What exactly is the draw of taking Mechanic levels or Data Jockey for a weapon Solarian, except to cripple the Solar Weapon and delay Revelations? Is it just for, like, Heavy Armor and Overclocking?
Heavy armor, longarms (and Specialization at mechanic level 3), more class skills (Computers, Engineering, and Piloting being the most useful, IMO) without needing a feat and/or Skill Adept (use for Culture, and possibly Life Science for creature identification), and Skill Focus (Computers would probably be the most likely choice for this character) to start with. Giving up all of 1d6 on the solar weapon is hardly "crippling;" being able to contribute effectively at range, as well as in melee (while keeping all the character's normal feats; the three levels of mechanic basically remove the "typical" solarian's need to spend feats on Heavy Armor Proficiency, Longarm Proficiency, and Versatile Specialization) isn't bad, either.
Data jockey is basically to help the solarian to be a competent hacker with System Guru (even if not "the absolute best" that a focused mechanic, operative, or technomancer can attain), as well as expanding the "skill-monkey" aspect with Fast Retrieval. Yes, you give up some revelations, but only a handful are really that great (IMO); many of them grant similar effects to what can be achieved with equipment or feats*.
*- Dark Matter is equivalent to Enhanced Resistance (DR), except the revelation requires an action to activate; Flare is equivalent to carrying a light source and the Flashblinders armor upgrade; Gravity Anchor is the equivalent of Magboots and/or the bonding fusion; Gravity Boost is pretty much equivalent to falcon boots (apart from the bonus to Athletics skill checks); etc.
I like the homebrew idea that you can choose to get archetype features one level later and you give up feats to get them Pathfinder 1E VMC style.
The flexibility should allow different class concepts to be able to get their iconic class abilities and also the archetype options.