Hi everyone
I have a player with a Barbarian/Brawler grapple build and I am struggling to get my head around certain aspects.
This character has the following:
- Deadly Grappler feat
- Animal Fury Rage power
- Armour spikes
- Unarmed strike
Has he gone overkill here? The bite, spikes and unarmed strike can all be used whilst in the grappled condition to deal damage. But only one of them surely (without two weapon fighting)? Or can he do unarmed OR spikes AND bite (with bite at -5)?
In addition can I confirm the bite from Animal Fury is only once in a grapple. It can’t be made prior to a grapple? We got confused when playing because of the +2 it granted. It turns out I wasn’t reading the text and going on the player say so. The description clarifies this as maintain or breaking free.
Finally does the Deadly Grappler feat increase the damage by one step in all grappled or only when the character is being grappled? Or is it irrelevant as in a grapple he always has the ‘grappled’ condition? The latter seems like a RAW interpretation vs. a RAI interpretation. The text of the feat points towards it only working when you have been grappled not making the grapple yourself…
Grapple has its own rule set and action economy that takes some time to wrap your head around. Paraphrasing some of the rules:
Deadly Grappler: All his attacks while grappled do damage as one size larger.
Animal Fury Rage power: Gains a bite attack. Can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain a grapple.
Armor Spikes: Can be used as a light weapon in a grapple. (This is a contested topic. There is an argument that the armor spikes do free or bonus damage.)
Unarmed Strike: Can be used as a light weapon in a grapple.
Lanathar wrote: Has he gone overkill here? It is normal to go all in on grappling if you are making a grappling character.
Lanathar wrote: The bite, spikes and unarmed strike can all be used whilst in the grappled condition to deal damage. But only one of them surely (without two weapon fighting)? Or can he do unarmed OR spikes AND bite (with bite at -5)? Grappling and maintaining a grapple is a standard action (or a move action with greater grapple), this means that the character cannot grapple and make normal attacks (or full round attacks). Their only damage will come from that allowed by the grapple maneuver.
Lanathar wrote: In addition can I confirm the bite from Animal Fury is only once in a grapple. It can’t be made prior to a grapple? This only applies on checks to maintain (after the target is already grappled), or in the rare case that they are actually grappled and are trying to escape.
Lanathar wrote: Finally does the Deadly Grappler feat increase the damage by one step in all grappled or only when the character is being grappled? There is some division on this one. During a grapple, everyone involved has the grappled condition but there is also a distinction whether you are grappling or being grappled (see the succubus case), but I do not think it applies in this case. I don't think it applies in this case because if it did the feat would be almost useless, so more a balance argument than a rules arguement there.
So, in a normal fight he can establish a grapple on turn one, dealing no damage. And then maintain to deal damage (see the options available to grapplers), with the free bite 'attack' that has to roll to hit, and then the damage from the grapple action, that will auto-hit (maintaining the grapple is the 'attack roll' on this attack)
Have a look at this flow chart to help with grappling.
Overkill is an Order of the Penitent Cavalier with his Expert Captor ability and the Throatslicer feat. He can hog tie and coup de grace you in the same turn.
What I meant by overkill is that once in a grapple it seems like damage can only be inflicted by one of the three methods - bite , spikes or unarmed strike
And that it seems like this is not something understood by the player who must be thinking more than one can be applied each turn? Either that or they want alternate options such as piercing and bludgeoning ...
So, the spikes are entirely separate from what the player would do as an "attack" while grappled. It's basically automatic damage to the other person in the grapple, JUST because there is a grapple occurring. It happens whether you want it to or not, JUST because you're grappling or grappled, and (unless you have Merciful on them) always does lethal damage.
Doing damage as a part of maintaining the grapple is ENTIRELY different, and optional. But yes, it's technically overkill:
Grapple wrote: Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
So, no, he can't do a bite AND a punch. He can do a Bite AND spikes, or a Punch AND spikes, but not a Punch and a Bite.
There ARE exceptions to this rule of thumb, but with what you've listed, he's not filling any of them, as the vast majority of them are special abilities of special natural attacks (Rending Claws, or having a claw attack with the Rending chain, or having a Rake attack, and some methods of acquiring Tentacles let you do tentacle damage on top of everything else, etc), or are a Garrote, which applies the Strangulation rules to grappling every time you maintain a grapple.
It should also be noted, that though I call "unarmed strikes" punches, it's not limited to that. Headbutts, knees, feet, and elbows can all be used effectively in a grapple. So, IN THEORY, your player could max out what he can do without going into freaky territory would be Garrote the guy to suffocate(Must be from stealth or surprise or otherwise dex-denying position, though, so limited use on a barbarian), apply his Spikes, and then either hit him with Unarmed Strikes or Bite him. Frankly, unless he has Monk levels, he's wasting the unarmed strike and the bite this way, as he'd only get 1d4 out of either.
Sidenote, per the quoted rule and the Armorspikes rule, they CAN attack with the armorspikes on top of the normal damage.
Lanathar wrote: What I meant by overkill is that once in a grapple it seems like damage can only be inflicted by one of the three methods - bite , spikes or unarmed strike
And that it seems like this is not something understood by the player who must be thinking more than one can be applied each turn? Either that or they want alternate options such as piercing and bludgeoning ...
So, yes having the bite and unarmed strike is redundant, any time he does damage in a grapple he will have to pick one. But he needs unarmed strike to take improved grapple, so that might be why it is there.
Armor spikes fit in with the bite and unarmed strike as redundant unless you read the armor spikes as automatic damage. Zarius's points are the other half of the contested armor spike discussion.
DM Livgin wrote: Armor spikes fit in with the bite and unarmed strike as redundant unless you read the armor spikes as automatic damage. Zarius's points are the other half of the contested armor spike discussion. Armor Spikes wrote: bArmor spikes deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. {...} I'm not sure what the "contested armor spike discussion" is, but the Armor Spike data is pretty clear, as is the Grapple Damage data. On any successful grapple attack, which includes Maintaining the hold, you deal Armor Spike damage. Further, when you Maintain the hold (successfully), you can deal damage from one of three sources, including armor spikes.
One is because you're grinding your perverted self on someone, the other is because you're actively using the spikes. :P It should be noted that, while I'm being mildly sarcastic about it, it IS exactly the RAW. My GM disagrees with my, FYI. He hates it when I'm technically right, but utterly wrong just because it's factually impossible. :P
Also, if you want overkill, Spikes are a Light weapon. Which means that you can use them as an oversized weapon (Put Large spikes on Medium barbarian's armor, it becomes the equivalent of a one-haded). Then couple it with Deadly Grappler. And, since you aren't actually attacking with them, as long as you're proficient, there's no -2 over-size penalty for the grapple.
Actually, I just reread the OP (happens sometimes, if it pops up to the top of the page before processing back down), and I noticed that the barbarian DOES have Brawler. So, him fisting his opponent is already doing 1d8 damage at level 1, thanks to the Deadly Brawler feat... Why is he worried about the pithy 1d3? Between the 1d8 punchy and the 1d6 spiky bits, he's already averaging enough damage to kill ANY L1 NPC, or half a barbarian. Roll your eyes at him and tell him to go hump a polearm.
Zarius wrote: Actually, I just reread the OP (happens sometimes, if it pops up to the top of the page before processing back down), and I noticed that the barbarian DOES have Brawler. So, him fisting his opponent is already doing 1d8 damage at level 1, thanks to the Deadly Brawler feat... Why is he worried about the pithy 1d3? Between the 1d8 punchy and the 1d6 spiky bits, he's already averaging enough damage to kill ANY L1 NPC, or half a barbarian. Roll your eyes at him and tell him to go hump a polearm. I think he thought the bite worked like the bite and grab that lots of creatures get. So bite attack with a free grapple at the end at +2 with damage then inflicted in turns afterwards
Also he is unsubtle. He as made it with 19 strength, mutagenic mauler archtype and carrying potions of enlarge person. So it is more about what gets added to the dice for spikes, bite etc
Does the auto damage from spikes and strength on? Hero lab says it does
I would proceed with that assumption, yes. It IS still a weapon. But it's a not-Monk/brawler-punch LIGHT weapon so, if I recall correctly, it's half str. And, in fairness, Grapplers aren't meant to be subtle. That's Trippers. Fair warning, due to the rules... He can probably grapple and pin a dragon with fair ease.
Side note, if you want away AROUND grappling, Freedom of Movement.
Zarius wrote: I would proceed with that assumption, yes. It IS still a weapon. But it's a not-Monk/brawler-punch LIGHT weapon so, if I recall correctly, it's half str. And, in fairness, Grapplers aren't meant to be subtle. That's Trippers. Fair warning, due to the rules... He can probably grapple and pin a dragon with fair ease.
Side note, if you want away AROUND grappling, Freedom of Movement.
Tetori Monks care not about your silly freedom of movement.
Sure, at level 9. But this guy is a brawler-barbarian. FoM suppression will never be on his list of abilities.
Would armor spikes with Phase Locking negate FoM?
VoodistMonk wrote: Overkill is an Order of the Penitent Cavalier with his Expert Captor ability and the Throatslicer feat. He can hog tie and coup de grace you in the same turn. There is a severe stricture that comes with the Order of the Penitent: They are forbidden to kill any people.
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Zarius wrote: Sure, at level 9. But this guy is a brawler-barbarian. FoM suppression will never be on his list of abilities.
That’s what Spell Sunder (available at L6) is for.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: VoodistMonk wrote: Overkill is an Order of the Penitent Cavalier with his Expert Captor ability and the Throatslicer feat. He can hog tie and coup de grace you in the same turn. There is a severe stricture that comes with the Order of the Penitent: They are forbidden to kill any people. Huh. Well, have your friend take Throatslicer, almost like a teamwork feat. You leave a trail of hog tied opponents, your team of cut throats casually walking behind you coup de gracing them one by one.
Technically, you didn't kill anyone.
VoodistMonk wrote: Zarius wrote: I would proceed with that assumption, yes. It IS still a weapon. But it's a not-Monk/brawler-punch LIGHT weapon so, if I recall correctly, it's half str. And, in fairness, Grapplers aren't meant to be subtle. That's Trippers. Fair warning, due to the rules... He can probably grapple and pin a dragon with fair ease.
Side note, if you want away AROUND grappling, Freedom of Movement.
Tetori Monks care not about your silly freedom of movement. Zarius wrote: Sure, at level 9. That is another problem with Expert Captor: if you are in love with Inescapable Grasp--and what Grappler isn't?--dipping 2 levels in Cavalier puts Inescapabe Grasp off till level 11. Dipping 2 more levels in Alchemist to get a Crab Familiar will put I.G.off until level 13. A Grappler that dips like that might well see Inescapable Grasp, well, escape from his grasp. When I design a Grappling character, I make sure the character can do something else, too: sneak around, shoot arrows, 2 weapon fight with good weapons, something else.
VoodistMonk wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: VoodistMonk wrote: Overkill is an Order of the Penitent Cavalier with his Expert Captor ability and the Throatslicer feat. He can hog tie and coup de grace you in the same turn. There is a severe stricture that comes with the Order of the Penitent: They are forbidden to kill any people. Huh. Well, have your friend take Throatslicer, almost like a teamwork feat. You leave a trail of hog tied opponents, your team of cut throats casually walking behind you coup de gracing them one by one.
Technically, you didn't kill anyone. I don't think most GMs would allow you to back out of your Cavalier Vows on a technicality!
Voodist, no. Freedom of Movement is not dimensional travel, so Phase Locking would be moot. SPELL SUNDER is an interesting thought, though you have to drop your Grapple to Sunder.
Scott... This is why my Grappler is a rogue. With monk dips (I should have given her Verdant Brawler, that's just cool as kitten kicking contests).
I'm with you, Scott. If you LET your party slit throats without making an HONEST effort to stop them, you're guilty of aiding and abetting, which is just as bad.
Dispelling amulet of mighty fists, or dispelling daggers are a costly work-around to freedom of movement.
Comes down to being a team and having your own friendly wizard to cast greater dispel.
Back to the question: That bite is 'grab-lite' the same bonus damage while maintaining, but no free grapple attempts.
Lanathar wrote: Zarius wrote: Actually, I just reread the OP (happens sometimes, if it pops up to the top of the page before processing back down), and I noticed that the barbarian DOES have Brawler. So, him fisting his opponent is already doing 1d8 damage at level 1, thanks to the Deadly Brawler feat... Why is he worried about the pithy 1d3? Between the 1d8 punchy and the 1d6 spiky bits, he's already averaging enough damage to kill ANY L1 NPC, or half a barbarian. Roll your eyes at him and tell him to go hump a polearm. I think he thought the bite worked like the bite and grab that lots of creatures get. So bite attack with a free grapple at the end at +2 with damage then inflicted in turns afterwards
Also he is unsubtle. He as made it with 19 strength, mutagenic mauler archtype and carrying potions of enlarge person. So it is more about what gets added to the dice for spikes, bite etc
Does the auto damage from spikes and strength on? Hero lab says it does Well, how does your player want his character to work? I've been fooling around with Grappling builds for a long time, and my approaches seem radically different: I like to either go for a quick hogtying like Voodooist was talking about or making multiple attacks with piercing weapons and Hamatula Strike and abuse the Armor Spike Damage like DMLvng and Zarius were talking about, but that doesn't mean build is right or wrong even if one of our character's is better minmaxed.
It kind of looks like the OP's player wants a character that inflicts lots of damage with the Maintain-Damage action.
Lanathar wrote: Has he gone overkill here? To my eye, it seems like underkill, but as I said, it's more about what the player wants than what I think.
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