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So does trick attack work with shot on the run in such a way that you can move shoot and then move again?
The wording is a bit murky. It seems to indicate no that is not the case, you can move before or after shooting, but not both. However the intention seems to be that you should be able to.
What do you guys think? At the very least I feel the wording is messing and should be clarified
This came up at our table and we ruled that you can combine them. It hasn't broken the game for us. Officially,I don't know the answer, but in practice it has been great fun for my players.
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Benefit: As a full action, you can move up to your speed and make a single ranged attack at any point during your movement. If you have the trick attack class feature, you can take your movement from trick attack at any time during a trick attack (see page 93) with a ranged weapon (instead of only before).
I agree the wording is messy but not to the point that it would require a FAQ.
I believe that someone using Trick Attack can move before and after their Trick Attack. Note that Trick Attack includes a single attack.
It seemed very clear cut to me when I first read it, that the feat allows you to "shoot on the run" with your trick attack. But after seeing the explanations given by Claxon in the other thread, I'm not absolutely sure anymore.
Would love a clarification on this one (and spring attack too).
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Same for me. At first I thought it was clearly shoot any time during the movement, Claxon made me reconsider. That's why I started this thread.
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And it's worth noting that I don't actually support ruling that way, it's just that as written the ability is unclear IMO. I expect it provides a Spring Attack like equivalent ability, but the wording could really be cleared up.
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If this does enter into the FAQ, I'd also like to see them clarifying the Mobility requirement of Shot on the Run and Spring Attack.
At present, the Uncanny Mobility OpEx tree eventually entirely supplants the Mobility feat, but an Operative build with those OpEx's would have to also waste a feat pick on Mobility to qualify for Shot on the Run.
Mobility and uncanny mobilty aren't the same though. Mobility always is in effect whereas uncanny mobility only works against the target of a trick attack. So it really isn't a wasted feat though there is some overlap.
The next OpEx, Improved Uncanny Mobility essentially makes Mobility obsolete. Double Moves and Trick Attacks both cease to provoke any Attacks of Opportunity from movement.
It's pretty obvious that OpEx tree is meant for the same builds that take Spring Attack and Shot on the Run, but at the moment they appear to require burning a feat as well.
But it doesn't because improved uncanny movement requires you to spend a standard action to move to gain the benefit. Mobility is always on for all circumstances, withdraw, run, double move, single move, trick attack etc etc. Yes you could avoid getting mobility, but you are going to have to make more difficult choices than a character that has it.
With Improved Uncanny Mobility, a double move is a Withdraw action, but without Withdraw's many restrictions. You negate all threatened square attacks of opportunity, not just the one of the square you are leaving, and you negate AoO's from invisible opponents, as well as opponents you can't see because you are blinded.
Trick Attacks are allowed with Improved Uncanny Mobility, and they include a single move in them.
Running provokes its own attacks of opportunity, which aren't for leaving threatened squares, and Starfinder doesn't have Combat Reflexes, so enemies can only take one reaction. This means if you Run out of a threatened square, that creature must choose between attacking either against your AC + 4 (for Mobility) or just your AC. Mobility isn't likely to help you there.
This leaves you with one situation left: you want to move, and then perform a standard action that is not an attack with one of your Operative-approved weapons. So what are they? Operatives don't get spells. Operatives should never Feint. It's not entirely clear if Covering/Harrying Fire or Combat Maneuvers can be Trick Attacks; if they can be, Mobility is superseded by the OpExs. If they can't, Operatives aren't very good at them, as their attack rolls are balanced assuming they get their Trick Attack bonus.
Which leaves 'Activate an Item'. You can throw in this category some miscellaneous plot related standard actions. Perhaps someone needs to activate a computer in a scene, and its not just flipping a switch, but not quite a full action either. In those situations, you can leave a threatened square with a 20% bonus chance to avoid being hit.
And maybe you want to Run and you have Jet Dash. Or you need to do a combat maneuver even though you suck at it, because its your only option. Or some other incredibly non-ideal situation where you are also in a threatened square. In those rare occasions, you can give up your complete immunity to threatened squares for a +4 to AC.
The mobility feat, heck any feat, is a description of how you intend to use that character. For Mobility, you expect to be bouncing around a battlefield, often risking Attacks of Opportunity. If you have even the basic Uncanny Mobility, you would never want to use Mobility. Yes, there are some rare situations where Mobility applies and Improved Uncanny Mobility doesn't, but they are edge cases, when you character is having to do something they clearly weren't designed to do, because of a special case. And even then, you don't avoid the Attack of Opportunity, you only get a bonus against it. That is not a feat anymore, that's hardly anything.
Improved mobility does not make you immune to attacks of opportunity when you take a double move, it makes you immune to them when you take a standard action to move. Those are two different things. If I wanted to move twice and had improved uncanny mobility I could be immune to AoO for either the first half of my movement, or my second, but not both.
There are many circumstances where the limitations of mobility operative tricks are going to come up. Can you as a player minimize this? most certainly. Smart play solves lots of problems by working around those limitations. However there are still may circumstances where having mobility is going to be helpful. I don't have time to go through a long list, so I'll give a single example, I want to trick attack someone other than the big melee guy I'm standing next to. Neither of the operative tricks are going to help me here. He's not the target of my trick attack, and I need all of my actions, I can't give up my standard to move away. So if I have the mobility feat I do what I wanted to anyway and count on the +4 to AC to save my butt. OR I can just chose to do something else. That is not a fringe case.
I might be wrong about the double move, you've got me there. I think it's vaguely defined, but the phrase 'your movement' might only refer to the movement of the standard action move. It's open to interpretation, but I see what you're saying. Regardless, though, it's still better than Withdraw if you have the Improved version. Edit: Sorry, brainfart. I forgot the context we were discussing this in!
However, your single example is wrong. Improved Uncanny Mobility would work. It specifies you can trick attack, and your movement from that action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. You could avoid the big melee guy and still attack a second target. That's one of the primary differences between it and basic Uncanny Mobility.
I see I was mistaken there. I missed the first little bit. I hate it when I am in a rush. Regardless it's been a good conversation. I see that there is now a specific thread for this topic, so I will join and continue there.
It seems that this interaction, between Trick Atrack and the Shot on the Run and Spring Attack feats is still not fully clarified.
Do these feats:
A: give the option to move after the attack in Trick Attack?
B: give the ability to move both before and after the attack in Trick Attack, as they do with a normal attack?
Bonus Question:
The Star Knight Challenge feature includes movement followed by an attack, with special dispensation to use a Trick Attack as the included attack. Do Spring Atrack and Shot on the Run apply to Challenge, if Challenge is also a Trick Attack?
The two abilities expressly work together.
The feat is called shot in the run
The feat specifies the movement can be at any time. Before and after is any time.
The trick attacker would get almost no benefit from a feat they specifically get benefit from if they cant move both before and after
The abilities expressly work together. The wording of the feat expressly describes it working for Trick Attack in a different manner than it describes when Shot on the Run is a standalone full action. I have seen that this results in the interaction being read in 2 ways, and (while i believe that before AND after, rather than before OR after is correct) I don't see enough evidence to dismiss one as invalid.
I would like to see if we can get it down to one reading.
Bonus Question:
The Star Knight Challenge feature includes movement followed by an attack, with special dispensation to use a Trick Attack as the included attack. Do Spring Atrack and Shot on the Run apply to Challenge, if Challenge is also a Trick Attack?
Definite No. Shot on the run, trick attack, and challenge are all full round actions. They only work together because they specifically say they will.
Peanut butter and chocholate= peanut butter cup= awesome
Peanut butter and jelly= sandwhich= awesome
Therefore, peanut butter and jelly and chocholate = awesome...
Doesn't follow.
(i had a better analogy but it clocked in over pg 13...)
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You cannot, according to the book do both, because the Shot on the run is a full action, as is the Operative Trick. you cannot combine 2 full actions as one full action.So does trick attack work with shot on the run in such a way that you can move shoot and then move again?
The wording is a bit murky. It seems to indicate no that is not the case, you can move before or after shooting, but not both. However the intention seems to be that you should be able to.
What do you guys think? At the very least I feel the wording is messing and should be clarified
You should read the whole text of Shot on the Run.