Hi there,
One of my players is about to play an alchemist for the first time and is coming up with lots of small miniature headache rules questions. This is only the 2nd alchemist we've had in our group (the first being eaten by a giant eel) so we've not had a chance to get to know them very well. I've been trying to research the rules questions that pop up but not had a lot of success. Some of the issues feel relatively minor but it would be great if there was an official rules citation on some of these questions. Here's the questions and my take on them:
1. Can you use Explosive Missile with Alchemical Weapons?
Couldn't official answer. Assumed to be allowed as while the wording declares both abilities "infuse" the weapon or ammo there is no ruling saying that they cannot stack because they provide two different mechanical benefits.
2. Does rolling a critical hit with a splash weapon increase the damage?
Only on the direct damage. Splash damage is automatically applied and thus there is no "roll to hit" that is required to critical.
3. Does critical hit with bombs (and explosive missile) increase the "minimum damage" of bombs for their splash affect.
No. It only increases the direct damage of the bomb. Explosive Missile when crits on a hit increases the ranged weapon damage, the direct bomb damage and the direct alchemical weapon damage only.
4. Can you use Explosive Missile with a Conductive enchanted weapon?
Haven't found an official answer. Again this has the issue in that is empowering the ammo similar to Explosive Missile and Alchemical Weapons, however the mechanical benefit of Explosive Missile and Conductive weapon are the same in this case and so undecided on whether to allow this.
Honestly I just want to be fair to the other players, the player with these issues, and the NPCs.
Thanks!
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1. If you mean "Can I use Explosive Missile to infuse an alchemical item?", no. The most recent version of the Explosive Missile alchemist discovery specifically states it has to be an "arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet."
2. Correct.
3. Correct, except the part mentioned in #1. You can't use Explosive Missile on alchemical items.
4. It's up to you. It would cost the user three uses of their bombs, so it would be a "nova" option that would very quickly get outclassed. Technically, as long as the weapon being used is ranged, it would be fine rule-wise.
edit: took me a while to write it all and some got ninja'd
i think i can try and help you with some of the questions:
1: Explosive Missile: reads to work only with arrows, x-bow bolts or bullets. so that depend on the alchemical weapon used (there are stuff like acid\fire\other arrows or bolts that deal small amount of damage. i guess they can be used with this.)
so things like liquid ice bolt might work but a vial of alchemical fire won't
2: correct only the direct damage is multiplied. the splash damage as it apply to anything close no matter the roll (and even on a failed roll if it lands close enough) is not a critical hit damage.
3: as above only the direct hit damage should be multiplied.
-also note, on the alchemist bomb class ability it specifically call out that only 1d6 is multiplied no matter the level of the alchemist. as the increase in bomb damage that come with higher alchemist level is not part of the normal bomb damage but a kind of added damage that does not multiply on a critical hit!.
4: i would go with he can use IF he uses the Explosive Missile ability first to load the ammo with a bomb and use the conductive ability to add something else. but he can not use the conductive ability to add a bomb AFTER he hits (so in the first case if he miss he loose the bomb also loading and shooting is standard action and not part of a full attack.)
reason is the conductive ability only work with spell-like ability or supernatural and explosive weapon ability is neither (at least as far as i can tell from looking in the archive of nethys if you look at the abilities above and below it you'll notice they are marked as (su) but explosive weapons isn't)
as for question #4. a different thing to look for is if you can use conductive weapon ability and the bomb ability since that is a supernatural ability(ranged one). in that case id still go with no can do since unlike other (su) or (sp) abilities that need no materials bombs specifically call out to need alchemical ingredients to use and if the alchemist is lacking his alchemist ingredient bag he can't throw any bombs. so retroactively adding a bomb to a ranged weapon that hit would be a stretch. although raw some might argue it should work.
Dark Midian wrote: 1. If you mean "Can I use Explosive Missile to infuse an alchemical item?", no. It is kind of like that but not. The mechanical way it works is that you pre-infuse an arrow, bolt or bullet with alchemical weapons. You then perform Explosive Missile with that arrow which infuses it with the bomb on top of the alchemical weapon. While both are using the word "infuse" and have similar mechanics they are not the same ability so they technically stack.
To summarise how it can work in a single turn.
Swift action to retrieve alchemical weapon from pocket/handy haversack, belt pouch using some mechanism like prehensile tail.
Use Alchemical Weapons as a move action (becomes swift/free action at higher levels) to infuse the bolt with an alchemical weapon (for maximum benefit this would be a compound weapon made via the use of a Hybridisation Funnel).
Use Explosive Missile as a standard action to load, infuse with bomb, and shoot the arrow in a single shot. Interestingly this also gets around the reload times of a Heavy Crossbow.
From the discussions I've seen there's been no clear statement either way but a lot of people seem to assume its legitimate and there's no specific rules that say it doesn't work.
zza ni wrote: i would go with he can use IF he uses the Explosive Missile ability first to load the ammo with a bomb and use the conductive ability to add something else. but he can not use the conductive ability to add a bomb AFTER he hits (so in the first case if he miss he loose the bomb also loading and shooting is standard action and not part of a full attack.) The issue with that intepretations that the Conductive weapon enchant states that it only triggers when the target is struck. The RAW is against you on that despite the fact that I do agree with the point of how you can make something at range explode by using the materials locally. I would probably say that it's a reasonable compromise but I unfortunately need to nail down an official/rules defined answer as much as possible.
When referring to archetype gained features, you might want to make it a bit clearer, to minimize confusion - here it seems like the Grenadier's Alchemical Weapons ability, correct ?
Which, yes, you can then add Explosive Missile to. A classic.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, retrieving an alchemical item is usually considered part of the action you're using it with, no swift tail shenanigans required.
At least when it comes to throwing, but I expect it's the same here.
Regarding Conductive : Explosive Missile is its own special action, Conductive triggers on successful attack - I'd say it's one or the other. Not sure I'm right, but that is the feeling I get.
Still Conductive could allow you to bypass the discovery, and while it consumes double the bombs, it also by definition never misses. Abit weird, but a potential alternative, should you have more money available than discoveries you wanna grab.
Edit : wait. Conductive needs "a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target", but "Bombs [...] use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack "
Does that even qualify, or is a special attack too special ?
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
On the question #3 about splash damage and critical hits with the alchemist’s bomb ability, just remember that if it is the alchemist’s bomb and he scores a critical hit that the splash damage is the minimum damage for that hit.
For example, a 3rd Level alchemist with an 18 intelligence and point-blank shot does 2d6+5 points of damage on a direct hit and 7 points of damage (reflex save for half) to those in the splash area.
If that same alchemist rolls a natural 20 to attack the foe and backs up the critical hit, the damage is now 3d6+10 (the extra dice of bonus damage is NOT increased on a critical hit per the rules under bomb for the alchemist class), so now the splash damage should be 13 points (reflex save for half) as the minimum damage of the direct hit has increased.
So, yes, you canNOT score a critical hit if you do not directly hit a target, but if you do hit a target and the attack is a critical hit, then the minimum damage of the resulting splash should be increased. At least that is how I understand it and there is nothing that I have seen so far that would go against that ruling.
Hendelbolaf wrote: On the question #3 about splash damage and critical hits with the alchemist’s bomb ability, just remember that if it is the alchemist’s bomb and he scores a critical hit that the splash damage is the minimum damage for that hit.
For example, a 3rd Level alchemist with an 18 intelligence and point-blank shot does 2d6+5 points of damage on a direct hit and 7 points of damage (reflex save for half) to those in the splash area.
If that same alchemist rolls a natural 20 to attack the foe and backs up the critical hit, the damage is now 3d6+10 (the extra dice of bonus damage is NOT increased on a critical hit per the rules under bomb for the alchemist class), so now the splash damage should be 13 points (reflex save for half) as the minimum damage of the direct hit has increased.
So, yes, you canNOT score a critical hit if you do not directly hit a target, but if you do hit a target and the attack is a critical hit, then the minimum damage of the resulting splash should be increased. At least that is how I understand it and there is nothing that I have seen so far that would go against that ruling.
This poses a couple issues then...
what about if the target of the attack is immune to Critical hits? Would the "minimum damage" then NOT change due to the Critical hit?
How about if the target is resistant to the damage? say it has Fire Resistance 5... would the splash damage be reduced, because the minimum damage done by the hit changed (was reduced by 5)?
Or if the Target is damaged MORE by fire, and takes 1.5 times the damage, would that effect the splash damage done?
And what about Point Blank Shot? does that modify the "Minimum Damage"? so using your example would it be (for 2d6+5+PBS) 8 points?
No, I think it would be best to just calculate the "Minimum damage" from what the weapon would do before any modifications due to circumstances of the individual attack are factored in.
Nyerkh wrote: When referring to archetype gained features, you might want to make it a bit clearer, to minimize confusion - here it seems like the Grenadier's Alchemical Weapons ability, correct ? Yes indeed! I should have done that. It's the Grenadier archetype that has a level 2 special ability called Alchemical Weapon (which unfortunately is the same name as the items used in the benefit).
Nyerkh wrote: Conductive needs "a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target", but "Bombs [...] use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack "
Does that even qualify, or is a special attack too special ?
This is a good question. Another question that is a little murky and relates back to my question about Conductive + Bombs. I believe it is partly because the rules are for the 3 relevant items are:
The relevant rules are:
Bombs (Su) wrote: Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Throw Splash Weapon wrote: A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Conductive wrote: A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric’s domain granted power, sorcerer’s bloodline power, oracle’s mystery revelation, or wizard’s arcane school power). The reasoning for saying that it works would be: because Bombs use Throw Splash Weapon rules they are ranged touch attacks. Because the abilities are ranged touch attacks they could as RAW (from what I've seen so far) be used by Conductive.
So I guess there's 3 scenarios:
1. You can't use bombs with Conductive.
2. You can use bombs with Conductive but not in addition Explosive Missile.
3. You can use bombs with Conductive in addition to Explosive Missile.
If there's any rules that supports any of those 3 scenarios I'd be more than happy but as I mentioned I've not found anything.
Edit: Missed closing quote mark.
The Toaster wrote: This poses a couple issues then... I agree that it does pose some questions but let me address some of the implications you've raised.
The Toaster wrote: what about if the target of the attack is immune to Critical hits? Would the "minimum damage" then NOT change due to the Critical hit? If the creature is immune to critical hits then the direct damage portion wouldn't get increased so the minimum damage would be the same on a normal hit. That's simply done as part of the calculation of how many dice you would be rolling on damage.
The Toaster wrote: How about if the target is resistant to the damage? say it has Fire Resistance 5... would the splash damage be reduced, because the minimum damage done by the hit changed (was reduced by 5)? If they hit with fire damage and the opponent has resistance then yes of course the damage would be reduced. There's no change to the mechanic of how damage is applied. The issue that we're discussing with this is "How do you calculate the damage that is to be taken?" not "How much damage is actually taken by the target?"
The Toaster wrote: Or if the Target is damaged MORE by fire, and takes 1.5 times the damage, would that effect the splash damage done? Same as above on the point with regards to resistance. The damage that the target actually takes is not relevant to working out much damage the player rolls on his damage.
The Toaster wrote: And what about Point Blank Shot? does that modify the "Minimum Damage"? so using your example would it be (for 2d6+5+PBS) 8 points? Ah HA! This is the one thing that there IS an official ruling on. Or at least partly because I'm sure someone will argue it.
From the FAQ - http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qnt
FAQ wrote: Point Blank Shot: Do I add the feat's extra damage to the splash damage from a splash weapon?
No, the extra damage from Point Blank Shot only applies to the target of a direct hit with a splash weapon (including direct hits from an alchemist's bomb).
Additionally if you read the example in the Bombs (Su) section of the alchemist class, you'll notice the example they provide does not include *any* bonuses to damage on the splash. The damage bonus that is shown comes from the Throw Anything feat, which provides Int mod to any splash effect, that alchemists get for free at level 1. It clearly states that the bonus is added into the Bombs feature.
The Toaster wrote: No, I think it would be best to just calculate the "Minimum damage" from what the weapon would do before any modifications due to circumstances of the individual attack are factored in. I don't see a problem here if some GMs want to rule it that critical hits increase the minimum damage. It's their game however this is precisely why I raised the question, because there is no clear official answer.
Personally I won't be increasing the minimum damage on crits because Splash Damage can never critical and thus I think it's weird that the splash damage would increase because of an excellent shot against an individual target.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
So it seems then that a better wording for the splash damage would have been to say at 1st level the splash damage is 1 + intelligence modifier and 1 additional point for every two level thereafter.
If I see minimum damage based off a direct hit, then I will calculate whatever minimum damage would be. So, yes, if I target a fire elemental with a bomb, then I should expect minimum damage to be non-existent.
However, I can see both sides. Ah, the beauty of the game that we have chosen to play and all the subtle permutations of the rules...
Hendelbolaf wrote: So it seems then that a better wording for the splash damage would have been to say at 1st level the splash damage is 1 + intelligence modifier and 1 additional point for every two level thereafter. That would probably solve a lot of headaches!
Hendelbolaf wrote: If I see minimum damage based off a direct hit, then I will calculate whatever minimum damage would be. So, yes, if I target a fire elemental with a bomb, then I should expect minimum damage to be non-existent. As I mentioned above, the working out of how much damage you could do is irrelevant to how much damage the monster actually takes. Energy resistance, immunity, vulnerability, and DR are all applied after the damage is determined.
From what you are saying there with the fire elemental example, the fire elemental if hit by a fire bomb will of course not take any damage from the fire bomb and the implication of that is that the splash damage will also now be 0 due to the minimum damage now being 0. The fire elemental has absorbed all the potential damage that the splash could have done, which defeats the whole point of splash damage.
Now to give an example of why it doesn't work like that let's extend that example a little further. What happens if you have a fire elemental and an ice elemental next to each other and you hit the fire elemental with a fire bomb which splashes onto the ice elemental. The fire elemental would reduce it down to 0 damage but then the ice elemental is vulnerable to fire so it should take 50% extra damage. 50% extra of 0 is still 0.
Of course there is the point that the splash damage still gains the +int modifier to the damage, so it would be 0+int damage increased by 50% but that's precisely the point I'm making. The vulnerability (resistance, DR, and immunity) is applied after the damage is worked out.
To give a numerical comparison starting with 2d6 damage and assuming no other bonuses aside from +4 int:
1. Applying immunity(etc) before calculating damage:
Fire elemental: Direct damage is calculated as 0 due to fire immunity. Minimum damage is 0. The direct damage is applied to the fire elemental as 0.
Splash damage: Calculated from minimum damage is 0+4.
Ice elemental: Takes splash damage which is 4 damage. This is applied to the ice elemental as 4.
2. Applying immunity(etc) after calculating damage:
Fire elemental: Direct damage is calculated as 2d6+4 damage. Minimum damage for splash is calculated as 2. The direct damage is applied to fire elemental however due to the fire immunity the damage actually taken is 0.
Splash damage: Calculated from minimum damage is 2+4.
Ice elemental: Takes splash damage which is 6. This is applied to ice elemental which due to vulnerability takes an additional 50% damage, bringing the actual total to 9.
I hope that makes sense.
TL;DR - Resistances, immunities, DR, and vulnerabilities are applied after damage has been calculated. Thus the minimum damage should be based off the number of dice rolled for bomb damage.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
I think you are right and number 2 method is probably correct.
So basically the damage for splash should be the minimum number of the total number of d6’s for the bomb and bonus dice plus the intelligence modifier, not modified for critical hits or Point-Blank Shot. Besides the intelligence bonus, is there anything you can think of that might add to the minimum and thus splash damage?
I have yet to play an alchemist, but have seen two played (maybe incorrectly).
Hendelbolaf wrote: So basically the damage for splash should be the minimum number of the total number of d6’s for the bomb and bonus dice plus the intelligence modifier, not modified for critical hits or Point-Blank Shot. Besides the intelligence bonus, is there anything you can think of that might add to the minimum and thus splash damage? Honestly, I don't know as starting to look at this has made me question a lot of things. I've seen a couple things where people are suggesting it adds to bomb damage, i.e. Tiefling/Half-Orc/Ifrit/Vanara favoured class gives 1/2 to bomb damage, and then counting that to include splash damage but I don't think that's the case. I think its only the direct bomb damage that gets boosted. I can't find confirmation either way.
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