Invisibility vs Grapple


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

so, i have an Enigma Mesmerist, and this issue almost came up- what happens when the target of my Solipsism Stare grapples me, and I become "invisible" to that enemy?

Our group speculated that the grappler would have to make a Perception prior to maintain the grapple; failing that they don't get to maintain.
(This is assuming the Grappling opponent doesn't have blind sense, life sense, or tremor sense; et al.)

What happens-
Me- *Stare, gain Concealment against Monster A*
Monster A- Grapple
Me- *gains Invisibility against Monster A*
Monster A- Perception to "find" my character.

Is there a ruling in regards to this, or is it up to GM discretion?


Under the grappled condition (p567)...

"If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit."


^

The idea being that you already know where the grapplee is on account of being all touchy feely; you just have trouble seeing what's going while maintaining that grapple. (See also: coup de grace vs. total concealment.)


Quote:
If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.

Never saw that before.

Do you interpret it literally? I.e., everyone else in the room can target the invisible guy as normal?


I've never had to interpret it in a game. I'm leaning towards benefits being largely lost though. If I were looking for a similar effect against invisibility, Glitterdust comes to mind. You are outlined, but can't do anything to trigger a stealth roll, so it's could be worse.


Yeah, Invisibility is basically worthless against someone grappling already you.

If you became invisible before hand they would have a 50% miss chance on initial grapple attempt, but once the grapple is established you're SOL.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The rule that Irontruth quoted is under the grappled condition so I understand the line “but receives no other benefit” to be specifically directed at the grappler and the invisible grappled foe. So, if the grapplers buddy wanted to attack the invisible grappled foe, the square should be easily identifiable, but the miss chance would still apply.

Like Claxon said if the foe was invisible before the grapple attempt, there is a miss chance to initiate the grapple on a successful CMB check. If, however, the invisible condition occurs after the grapple is begun, only the +2 benefit is applied and only on the foe’s CMD check to avoid having the grapple maintained, pin, etc.

Others outside the grapple still treat the invisible condition as they normally would.


The rules aren't very clear, and both interpretations make some logical sense.

("Your ally is holding them in place, so you can hit them even though they're invisible," versus "They're still invisible, so even though you know roughly where they are, there's still a 50% miss chance.")

I guess it's a GM call.


Hendelbolaf wrote:

The rule that Irontruth quoted is under the grappled condition so I understand the line “but receives no other benefit” to be specifically directed at the grappler and the invisible grappled foe. So, if the grapplers buddy wanted to attack the invisible grappled foe, the square should be easily identifiable, but the miss chance would still apply.

Like Claxon said if the foe was invisible before the grapple attempt, there is a miss chance to initiate the grapple on a successful CMB check. If, however, the invisible condition occurs after the grapple is begun, only the +2 benefit is applied and only on the foe’s CMD check to avoid having the grapple maintained, pin, etc.

Others outside the grapple still treat the invisible condition as they normally would.

One of the benefits of being invisible is that people have to pinpoint what square you are in. You're already modifying what invisible means to people outside of the grapple.

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