My daughter and I are looking at a hagbound witch character for her to play in Ironfang Invasion. Thematically, it fits nicely and we love the tragic theme "in the background", but I can't help feeling it's a very nerfed archetype.
1. Lose pretty much all hexes in exchange for increased strength, disguise at will, and the improved curse at 10th (?) level...
2. ...which wouldn't be so bad as a tradeoff (added strength with the claws, though she'd already have them from being a changeling) except that she will be an absolute glass cannon. Claws might be okay, but as a caster her AC and hit points will be too low to make a viable melee combatant.
3. Being a 2/3 caster, a witch's real "schtick" is her hexes, which are pretty much removed by the archetype.
Is there something here I'm missing? It seems like they dropped the ball on this archetype: beautiful concept, but mechanically unsound.
Witches are not 2/3 casters. They have the full 9 spell levels (unless I am missing some change in the hagbound archetype).
It is not necessarily the best spell list, but it has a mix of useful stuff. Not saying that you are wrong about the removal of hexes though.
Also, it is a very bad melee character. Both due to the lack of defense and the fact that you have 1/2 BAB. Even with the str bonuses, you are only making it to 'core rogue with TWF' levels of attack bonus. Most 3/4 BAB classes have both the BAB and some boosting mechanic to bring them close to +20.
So pretty much any archetype that makes a 1/2 bab class that do regular attacks is a bad one. I suppose the spell slinger... has its uses, and it dealt with the touch attacks of guns, so it could function. But most other ones don't really work.
er, witch is a full caster.
I'm not super familiar with their spell list but with the strength bonus it seems like you could build into a shapeshifting caster that rips people to bits with super high strength.
Seems like they get some but not a lot of self polymorph on their base list but if you go transformation patron you get all the beast shape and all the form of dragon spells.
You could probably do a decent job of AOE debuff of some sort then shapechange into some beast and munch stuff on the front lines
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But you might often be relegated to a 'I can't believe its not cleric!' position.
Yeah, that is kind of how I would characterize their list- some of the key healing stuff, and some debuffs/curses. Not the big flashy stuff of wizards though, for the most part.
Where did I get the 2/3 caster thing from?? *smacks self on head*
I think I must have been conflating 2/3 with 1/2 for the BAB? Oh, I don't know - brain fart, I guess!
But even so, losing the hexes seems like a big trade-off for a few bumps in combat ability (which is not so good to begin with)
Where did I get the 2/3 caster thing from?? *smacks self on head*
I think I must have been conflating 2/3 with 1/2 for the BAB? Oh, I don't know - brain fart, I guess!But even so, losing the hexes seems like a big trade-off for a few bumps in combat ability (which is not so good to begin with)
It is definitely playing AGAINST the strengths of the class (which is primarily debuffing things into uselessness). But as its also a 9 level caster that isn't to say it will render it useless or even bad.
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How about a hag haunted spiritualist? They literally have a hag leaning on their shoulder all day, trying to get them to do some nefarious deeds. It functions much like the normal spiritualist really- it doesn't trade too much out.
The archetype even somewhat touches on mechanics where you have to watch out for your phantom so it doesn't cause trouble, and you have to demanifest it as punishment (at which point, it might be petty and withhold the normal benefits from a demanifested phantom).
Additionally, it can try to withhold benefits just to extort you.
Another benefit of the archetype is that it switches you to arcane, so you don't have to deal with learning the psychic casting mechanics.
How about a hag haunted spiritualist? They literally have a hag leaning on their shoulder all day, trying to get them to do some nefarious deeds. It functions much like the normal spiritualist really- it doesn't trade too much out.
The archetype even somewhat touches on mechanics where you have to watch out for your phantom so it doesn't cause trouble, and you have to demanifest it as punishment (at which point, it might be petty and withhold the normal benefits from a demanifested phantom).
Additionally, it can try to withhold benefits just to extort you.
Another benefit of the archetype is that it switches you to arcane, so you don't have to deal with learning the psychic casting mechanics.
Spiritualist is Wis focused too right? so that plays into the changeling's statline nicely.
Hagbound gets a restricted list of patrons (not including transformation, trickery, or most others which might be good for melee; I suppose strength is OK) and can't even multiclass. From 6th level you can take hexes if mostly by the extra hex feat. It's not good, no.
To make it work you'd need to use the defensive spells the witch does get, i.e. false life (& greater), mage armor & spite - cast all these in advance when you can - and be ready to bail out fast when the melee goes against you. Playing a half-orc and using the alternate racial trait for a bite attack might help with offence.
Then burning a feat for prehensile hair and you've got claw claw bite hair.
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Spiritualist is Wis focused too right? so that plays into the changeling's statline nicely.How about a hag haunted spiritualist? They literally have a hag leaning on their shoulder all day, trying to get them to do some nefarious deeds. It functions much like the normal spiritualist really- it doesn't trade too much out.
The archetype even somewhat touches on mechanics where you have to watch out for your phantom so it doesn't cause trouble, and you have to demanifest it as punishment (at which point, it might be petty and withhold the normal benefits from a demanifested phantom).
Additionally, it can try to withhold benefits just to extort you.
Another benefit of the archetype is that it switches you to arcane, so you don't have to deal with learning the psychic casting mechanics.
I could imagine her arguing with the demanifested phantom.
"No, ghost mom. I am not going to cook the baby. We are going to return it to its parents so we get the reward. then I can just buy a normal dinner. If it makes you feel better, I'll order the lamb."
You can go Changelings, take Annis-Born Changeling for the bonus to str and +1 melee damage, Mother’s Gift feat [+1 hit/dam with claws].
Take a wicked patron [blood of covens pg# 15]: they swaps spells normally provided by a patron theme at specific levels, and grant a specific hex and drawback at 1st level. This gets you a hex at first so you can take extra hex right from the start.
I could imagine her arguing with the demanifested phantom.
"No, ghost mom. I am not going to cook the baby. We are going to return it to its parents so we get the reward. then I can just buy a normal dinner. If it makes you feel better, I'll order the lamb."
Must play! This is literally one of the best character ideas I've ever heared!