Ghost casting in walls

[Chess Pwn]

Are incorporeal creatures able to cast spells at people while they are inside of a wall? Wouldn't this cause issues with targeting and line of effect at all?

If they can, what are you supposed to do against a ghost in the wall since you can't attack it nor target it?

[DrDeth]

Good question.

[SlimGauge]

Line of effect is reciprocal. If the ghost has a line of effect to you, then you have one to it.

[ryric]

Can an incorporeal creature even make sound in a wall? Might interfere with verbal components.

[Chess Pwn]

SlimGauge wrote:

Line of effect is reciprocal. If the ghost has a line of effect to you, then you have one to it.

This is true if you need to go center to center. But if you can go corner to center then the ghost wouldn't be blocked by the wall but the wall would block for him.

This approach uses rules similar to cover for reach weapons, pick a corner and go to all of the others.

Center to center is more similar to cover with non-reach weapon.

So both seem like they can be valid.

[Avoron]

Normally, the limiting factor would be line of effect.

Line of Effect wrote:

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

But strictly speaking, it looks like that should be fine if you stay adjacent to the surface.

Total Cover wrote:

If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.

As long as you can draw a line from a corner of your square to the square you're casting into, you should be good to go.

There is, however, a special requirement for targeted spells.

Target or Targets wrote:

Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

So while you can certainly still cast, you can't target any creature you can neither see nor touch. Unless you're targeting yourself or a creature within reach, that probably means you'll have to come out of the wall.

Incorporeal wrote:

It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge.

Of course, what you really need to watch out for are incorporeal casters with Flyby Attack.

[Chess Pwn]

But again, the ghost in the wall can choose the corner of his square for vision and then the wall is not stopping that line of vision.

[Avoron]

Ordinarily, yes. But in this case there are specific rules for incorporeal creatures within objects, and they trump the general rules for calculating concealment and line of sight.

Incorporeal wrote:

It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge.

[Pizza Lord]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Are incorporeal creatures able to cast spells at people while they are inside of a wall? Wouldn't this cause issues with targeting and line of effect at all?

As others have said, the incorporeal creature would not have line of effect, so cannot cast spells or target creatures that require it. About the only spells it could use would have to be personal or targeted on themselves. This goes for spells and AoE effects from the other direction too, so an incorporeal undead can't be affected by turning or other bursts either.

Quote:

If they can, what are you supposed to do against a ghost in the wall since you can't attack it nor target it?

Against a creature in the wall, your most common method of dealing with them is readying an action to attack when they emerge to attack. An incorporeal creature can opt to remain in the wall and strike out at adjacent creatures (they can sense creatures within 5 feet), but they are at a 50% miss chance. In such a case, I would allow readied actions to strike at them (their limbs) when they do so. A GM may adjust damage or effects based on striking the limb or exposed portion (granting a cover bonus for most of the creature being concealed is probably the norm).

[Jurassic Pratt]

Avoron wrote:

Ordinarily, yes. But in this case there are specific rules for incorporeal creatures within objects, and they trump the general rules for calculating concealment and line of sight.

Incorporeal wrote:

It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge.

This seems to pretty much answer it.

[graystone]

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Avoron wrote:

Ordinarily, yes. But in this case there are specific rules for incorporeal creatures within objects, and they trump the general rules for calculating concealment and line of sight.

Incorporeal wrote:

It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge.

This seeks to pretty much answer it.

It never says how much they must emerge though: They could just stick out their head and keep Improved Cover.

[Jurassic Pratt]

Considering movement in combat is only in 5 foot increments I would imagine it means move fully out of the wall.

[graystone]

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Considering movement in combat is only in 5 foot increments I would imagine it means move fully out of the wall.

Even if movement HAS to only be in 5' moves, making traveling down a 13' hall impossible, but it can move in 3D so it could move 5' at a 10 degree angle until only part of its body is out of the wall.

People can go prone, kneel and take cover behind a wall, duck around a door that don't exactly match a square. I see NO reason we shouldn't look to underwater rules for this, or we run into a situation that a creature can't have their head above water because it's in another square.

"Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land.": What stops an incorporeal from doing this in a wall/floor?

[Avoron]

graystone wrote:

"Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land.": What stops an incorporeal from doing this in a wall/floor?

Nothing at all, but unless you have Flyby Attack you can't cast in the middle of your movement. So you'd have to end your turn partway out of the wall, leaving yourself open to attack.

Also note that while you need to see someone to target them, no such restriction applies to area or effect spells. Nowhere do the rules for incorporeal creatures say that being in a wall blocks line of effect, which is typically measured from the corner of your square. So you can still hang out inside the wall slinging fireballs and summoned monsters all day long.

[Jurassic Pratt]

graystone wrote:

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Considering movement in combat is only in 5 foot increments I would imagine it means move fully out of the wall.

Even if movement HAS to only be in 5' moves, making traveling down a 13' hall impossible, but it can move in 3D so it could move 5' at a 10 degree angle until only part of its body is out of the wall.

People can go prone, kneel and take cover behind a wall, duck around a door that don't exactly match a square. I see NO reason we shouldn't look to underwater rules for this, or we run into a situation that a creature can't have their head above water because it's in another square.

"Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land.": What stops an incorporeal from doing this in a wall/floor?

Come on man, you misinterpreted what I said. I meant that movement in combat has to be incrememnents of 5 foot squares. So you could move into the square that only has those last 3 feet, but it'd still use 5 feet of movement and you'd be squeezing.

[graystone]

Avoron wrote:

Nothing at all, but unless you have Flyby Attack you can't cast in the middle of your movement. So you'd have to end your turn partway out of the wall, leaving yourself open to attack.

I didn't mean to imply you could, just that you didn't have to fully expose yourself: Improved cover effectively gets you improved evasion and a +10 bonus on Stealth checks.

[graystone]

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Come on man, you misinterpreted what I said.

You were implying that someone in combat MUST move in only 5' increments and that prevented things like sticking your head out of water/walls. I don't think I misrepresented what you implied. I disagree that you're FORCED to move only in 5' blocks, just that you have to count them as such for max move. If I can stop at the end of that 13' hallway, I can also stop 3' out of the wall/floor...

[Pizza Lord]

An incorporeal creature can remain in the wall and attack out from it, though unless they emerge enough to 'see' they are striking blindly (though they can sense the presence of creatures within 5 feet, so they know where to strike).

Just like if a person standing in the edge of a fog cloud or something would have concealment and you readied an action to attack them when they swung at you. You would still have to roll concealment to hit them. In this case, the incorporeal creature would have cover at the least (since a significant portion is protected) and possibly improved cover depending on GM determination. There may be certain attacks or effects that are more or less affected, depending on the situation (which could vary so much that a one-size-fits-all answer would be foolhardy). For instance, if you had readied to disarm an incorporeal creature's (likely ghost touch) weapon with your own when it attacked*, a GM could rule they don't benefit from cover (if any would apply). Similarly, if an incorporeal creature were poking its face or eyes out enough to see, then they should be subject to visual or gaze effects with no benefits to cover, concealment, or other protections regardless of their actual position.

*As an aside, in my own games I rule this similar to striking from invisibility or concealment, so such readied actions don't tend to interrupt such attacks but occur immediately after (though the readying character's initiative is still placed to immediately prior to the attackers). It's similar to not being able to interrupt an invisible attacker with a ready since you can't observe the action until after it occurs (though it does trigger the ready at the first opportunity). Similar to how readying to attack a creature opening a door from the other side can't occur until after the door is actually opened, even though a ready typically occurs first. That's an aside though and just a personal comment.

[DrDeth]

Now, what if the creature wants to cast a spell on itself?