Hello fellow gamers,
First of all, let me apologize for by bad English. I'll do my best to properly write this. In addition, I think I will be good to add that I've been playing Pathfinder for a few years but there are a lot of things I've not even looked at yet. So, I may need additional explanation on some things that may be basic for anyone else.
I've recently discovered the existence of the Variant Multiclassing option. After reading it, I did not felt it very powerful or broken (I have to admit that the Wizard one seems a bit too much, but not the others ones). I'm probably missing things, specially the ones related to the "Base classes" because I've never used or even read any of them with the exception of the gunslinger [only read, not played, because this class uses guns and I was curious about it]).
Now, regarding the purpose of the thread, I'm interested on your thoughts and experiences with that option. What I've found until now was more of the specific option question than general thoughts and opinions so, here I go:
- In general, has the "VMC" created any problem/s in your games? Witch one/s?
- Usually, are those options worth 5 feats?
- What do you feel about being able to only use "VMC" or "traditional" multiclassing for your character? And if it was a group decision?
- What do you feel about being able to use both, "VMC" and "traditional" multiclassing on the same character?
- What are the most powerful options in your opinion? Why?
- What are the worse options in your opinion? Why?
I'm probably missing a lot of questions that will come arise at some moment so, feel free to add any information you want about the "VMC".
Thank you all for you answers and, of course, your time!
I don't have time to adress every single question so I'll share some quick thoughts.
The VMC system is very hot and cold, the disparity between the good options and bad options is huge.
For example the wizard vmc grants a familiar (remember, familiars give feat equivalant bonuses) and potentially an ability to teleport as a swift action. This is not only strong but opens up options that couldn't exist before, like a teleport/flank/full attack rogue. On the other hand the ranger vmc grants a smattering of useless or situational abilities culminating in a favored enemy that comes too little too late.
So yes, sometimes it's worth five feets. Other times it's a miserable disaster.
I would say the most powerful options are wizard, barbarian and magus. The latter two grant consistent damage and attack bonuses that remain relevant forever and the former opens a lot of doors tactically.
Sorcerer is interesting and varies greatly between bloodlines. The new scorpion bloodline gives you the ability to poison a weapon which is good for a charismatic melee character. Rogue is usually garabage because of the slow sneak attack profession, but works wonders for sanctified slayer inquisitors and vivisectionist alchemists by enhancing a previously existing sneak attack.
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Oracles are another good option, plenty of nice revelations out there.
This is not only strong but opens up options that couldn't exist before, like a teleport/flank/full attack rogue.
It's based on Dimension Door, and prevents you from taking any actions for the remainder of the round as a balancing point. You still don't qualify for the Dimensional Agility line, so you're stuck with that limitation.
- In general, has the "VMC" created any problem/s in your games? Which one/s?
So far, so good. Wizard and Witch haven't passed the level 7 bonus in any games, and are mostly handing out familiars without requiring a full feat chain. Oracle provides flavorful curses without allowing any broken Cha substitutions. Bard is the only once I've seen in high level, and it doesn't provide anything broken.
- Usually, are those options worth 5 feats?
Wizard, Witch, Bard, Oracle, and Sorcerer are generally worth considering (although Sorcerer competes with the more flexible Eldritch Heritage line). Great way to add flavor and interesting mechanics to characters.
- What do you feel about being able to only use "VMC" or "traditional" multiclassing for your character? And if it was a group decision?
Very important to maintain this, otherwise you get hacky prestige class retraining access stuff. Probably better to leave it as individual to avoid conflicts in play style.
- What do you feel about being able to use both, "VMC" and "traditional" multiclassing on the same character?
As above, this allows some rather hacky results. It's best to keep it limited to one.
- What are the most powerful options in your opinion? Why?
Wizard, air school for constant flight. Witch, Gift of Consumption hex(es). Also, take your familiar as something interesting and flavorful, not the generic scorpion or compsognathus.
- What are the worst options in your opinion? Why?
Paladin. Slapping that code on another class? Eugh.
You still don't qualify for the Dimensional Agility line, so you're stuck with that limitation.
This is actually unclear, and could stand to be FAQ'd
According to the most recent SLA prerequisite FAQ, a Dimensional Agility spell-like ability does qualify you for the Dimensional Agility feat. However, the Shift ability is one step further removed, working like a modified version of Dimension Door. There is currently no consensus on whether a spell-like ability that works like Dimension Door with a few exceptions is sufficient for meeting prerequisites. It's very much an edge case given the current state of the rules and FAQ. Expect table variation on the subject.
VMC is more comparable to feat chains than traditional multiclassing. For instance, VMC Sorcerer is extremely similar to the Eldritch Heritage feat chain. The difference is that VMC locks you into the entire chain whether you want it or not, while Eldritch Heritage forces you to meet prerequisites to qualify. As a result, I do not feel that VMC is a substitute for traditional multiclassing at all and fulfills a completely different role in the fine-tuned mechanics of character building.
The teleportation school's shift ability isn't spell-like; it's a supernatural ability. Not sure what effect that has on the expected interpretation of the SLA FAQ, especially since abundant step is also supernatural.
VMC is more comparable to feat chains than traditional multiclassing. For instance, VMC Sorcerer is extremely similar to the Eldritch Heritage feat chain. The difference is that VMC locks you into the entire chain whether you want it or not, while Eldritch Heritage forces you to meet prerequisites to qualify. As a result, I do not feel that VMC is a substitute for traditional multiclassing at all and fulfills a completely different role in the fine-tuned mechanics of character building.
Interesting perspective, I never saw it that way but now I agree.
EDIT
As an aside, I'm wondering why peiope aren't more into the barbarian VMC. Rage alone is worth six feats: (Weapon focus twice, toughness twice, weapon specialization, iron will) at relatively little cost to the user.
Abundant Step is called out explicitly and separately in the prerequisites of Dimensional Agility, so it's definitely in the clear. I'd forgotten that particular detail of Shift being supernatural rather than spell-like (which is actually a big part of what makes it so good; doesn't provoke AOO's), and that just further muddies the water over whether it's close enough to meet the qualifications.
VMC is more comparable to feat chains than traditional multiclassing. For instance, VMC Sorcerer is extremely similar to the Eldritch Heritage feat chain. The difference is that VMC locks you into the entire chain whether you want it or not, while Eldritch Heritage forces you to meet prerequisites to qualify. As a result, I do not feel that VMC is a substitute for traditional multiclassing at all and fulfills a completely different role in the fine-tuned mechanics of character building.
Interesting perspective, I never saw it that way but now I agree.
EDIT
As an aside, I'm wondering why peiope aren't more into the barbarian VMC. Rage alone is worth six feats: (Weapon focus twice, toughness twice, weapon specialization, iron will) at relatively little cost to the user.
It doesn’t make my list because I play casters for the most part. Even on some of the more martial casters, though, it’s a good deal. I wouldn’t count Toughness, as you have to give the hitpoints back pretty soon on the VMC budget of rounds, and it’s another feat to avoid rage death. The AC penalty and the limited rounds chip away at the feat-equivalency a bit, but overall it's still a good use of feats.
I'm also warming up to the witch VMC which I had earlier dismissed because of the fact that the hex you get functions as though you were a level one witch. Nails is a passible hex for an extra natural attack, swamp's grasp can be used to make a 10 by 10 area difficult terrain (good for defending the narrow pass, 300 style) and warding is a good spammable +2 AC buff. The familiar doeasn't hurt either.
It's a mixed bag. In my home games I've given and taken various things to meet my games' needs. For instance, VMC fighter grants stamina at 1st level, and you use your level to qualify for fighter feats, which was already questionable within the rules.
You can create some interesting builds and fill some gaps in classes with it. A Slayer with VMC rogue is basically a rogue with full BAB. Thanks to Ultimate Intrigue there are new ranger styles that seem to be written with the Slayer in mind. It basically means you not only don't lose out on feats, but you can actually also skip feat prerequisites. I'm not sure on the exact math, but iirc with Accomplished Sneak Attacker on the build you have the same sneak dice as a full rogue, and the rest of the VMC package is the missing half of the rogue package in class features.
The Child of Acavna and Amaznen (Arcane Anthology) is a fighter archetype that gets 4/9 arcane casting, and it works wonders with VMC Magus. Especially since you can take Spell Blending to add wizard spells to your repertoire for whatever you want. The weapon stuff is pretty great too. I'm pretty sure you even qualify for Extra Magus Arcana. Also the stamina tricks for Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor Training/Mastery make them additionally useful to you, by extending duration and reducing action, respectively.
- In general, has the "VMC" created any problem/s in your games? Witch one/s?
- Usually, are those options worth 5 feats?
- What do you feel about being able to only use "VMC" or "traditional" multiclassing for your character? And if it was a group decision?
- What do you feel about being able to use both, "VMC" and "traditional" multiclassing on the same character?
- What are the most powerful options in your opinion? Why?
- What are the worse options in your opinion? Why?
I'm probably missing a lot of questions that will come arise at some moment so, feel free to add any information you want about the "VMC".
Thank you all for you answers and, of course, your time!
1) No particular problems created in my home games. If anything, it allows the characters to cover a wider range of niches without allowing them to hyper-focus on one particular trick (in general). Unless they have a particular combination of class/vmc, they don't usually have the feats to pull off some really powerful options.
2) I allow VMC and traditional multiclassing in my home games. I doesn't impact the game very much. I prefer to keep traditional multiclassing to a minimum in either case.
3) Same as previous answer. Allowing traditional multiclassing allows for interesting prestige class access and allows them to keep the same progession with their VMC choice.
4) Most powerful options? That depends entirely on what you are trying to build. Although, I think everyone is in agreement that gunslinger VMC option is utter crap. My top favorites? No particular order: barbarian, rogue, magus, paladin, cavalier, alchemist, oracle, bard, sorcerer, & wizard. The rest are situational.
5) Worst? Gunslinger & summoner are the two worst. Why? Gunslinger is just not worth the feat tradeoffs (in fact, you can get more of the abilities with feats), and summoner ... I just don't like the power of the abilities when you get them.
Why? Gunslinger is just not worth the feat tradeoffs (in fact, you can get more of the abilities with feats)
The insidious part isn't that you're just trading a feat for a feat, but rather how they're staggered. Firearm proficiency, Gunsmithing, and Quick Clear form a necessary trinity of abilities that are all required to use guns effectively. If you're missing any one of the three, the other two are useless. As a result, an 8-level spread between gaining the first and last piece of this combo is untenable on any real build that will be playing through those intervening levels.
Thank you all for taking the time to answer! Your knowledge, thoughts, experience and opinions are letting me learn more and faster than if I just only read the VMC description and class tables countless times.
For what I got until now (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), it seems that one or two VMC "classes" are strong in most circumstances, the most of them heavily depends rest the character and a few ones have to be chosen very carefully or may even become a drawback to the character instead.
Few things I've read that appear a lot are the VMC Magus for Sneak attack users choosing the arcana called Prescient Attack, the mentioned VMC Wizard choosing de Teleportation subschool, VMC Sorcerer and a bunch of bloodlines depending on the character, a few for other VMC Wizard Schools depending on the character, one or maybe two recurrent options of VMC Oracle and a few more that I cannot recall if I do not read them again.
Those recurring choices lead me to another question:
- Have you seen or used any combination that went to good or too bad? Which one?
If you want and have the time to it, I'm still interested on knowing even more about your thoughts and opinions about VMC.
Thank you all for you answers and, of course, your time!
Depends on the option, and on the class/build. It's also normally not actually 5 feats, becaus few games reach 19th level.
I don't think allowing both on the same character has much impact - often, you need feats to make multiclass builds work (or multiclass to get more feats in the first place).
I would/plan to allow it as a GM, because I see it as two completely different things.
VMC Magus on a Monk: Ki Leechkipower/qinggong power plus [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo-magus-arcana/ki-arcana[/url], allowing things like attacking touch AC every round.
Apart from that, I like VMC Barbarian on a number of martial characters. Especially on natural attack based ones, as those tend to lack feat options to improve them.
Easy, Gunslinger and Summoner - both are simply not funcional.
Rage alone is worth six feats: (Weapon focus twice, toughness twice, weapon specialization, iron will) at relatively little cost to the user.
Minus 2 x Dodge, so 4 feats; and you might need Extra Rage. Toughness only counts if using unchained rage.
I'm writing this before going to sleep so it may contain more mistakes (an probably bigger ones too) than my other “writings”. I apologize in advance.
So far I'm finding all of your experiences, thoughts and opinions very interesting. I'm really finding very hard to not quote every piece of information to keep asking more... even if I want to keep my answers short, because I'm more interested on reading yours.
Until now, I've not even thought on the possibility of mixing VMC and prestige classes as a "big" part of it (sorry, right now I do not know how to properly say it). But, as said before, the prestige classes are a kind of a special multiclassing that need to meet some requirements is probably better to allow them either with "traditional" multiclass and VMC. But, as always, I would like to know your thoughts on it so:
- What do you feel about being able to multiclass on prestige classes when using VMC? What if both, "traditional" multiclassing and VMC where allowed on the same character?
Now it may be just because I'm a bit asleep, but I'm not able to see why a Qinggong Monk VMC Magus would hit to touch AC. Ki Leech let him recover Ki Points and Ki arcana allow some kind of mixing of both pool...
Of course, I'm still interested on knowing even more about your thoughts and opinions about VMC. From both, those who has already came here and those who don't yet.
Thank you all for you answers and, of course, your time!
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A Paladin can take the Oath of the People's Council and VMC Paladin (especially Order of the Star) and qualify for the Battle Herald PrC without otherwise multiclassing.
Order of the Star also lets the Paladin keep almost full progress on his Lay on Hands/Channel Energy while doing so.
The only draw back is that you're essentially a pure martial with one feat every four levels and no bonus feats. You won't get to do much other than power attack things, but the Battle Herald has some sweet performance options.
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Now it may be just because I'm a bit asleep, but I'm not able to see why a Qinggong Monk VMC Magus would hit to touch AC. Ki Leech let him recover Ki Points and Ki arcana allow some kind of mixing of both pool...
The Qinggong Power Ki Leech has no ki cost, so a Monk can simply maintain it all day long. That alone provides huge amounts of ki, and you can get almost infinite amounds with a few tricks*.
Since the Ki Arcana allows you to youse your refillable ki pool to fuel magus arcana, you can spam high cost arcanae like Accurate Strike.Let's say you're 10th level - a Magus would have an arcane pool of around 9, for a maximum of 4 rounds of touch attacking. An unMonk can do every fight, every round. Later, he can even add Flamboyant Arcana for Opportune Parry and Riposte...
*) For starters, using non-lethal damage and CdG'ing the unconscious enemies after combat. More advanced/abuse-y trick include repeatedly attacking (possibly CdG'ing) an armored target with a whip - no damage, but you can still crit and thus recover Ki. There's also no minimum CR required (unlike for Swashbucklers), so you can knock out some rats to get ki back. The extreme method is aquiring a tiny creature with regeneration (like Nycar, keep it in your rucksack at negative HP, and CdG it after each combat until you're at maximum ki pool again.
- What do you feel about being able to multiclass on prestige classes when using VMC? What if both, "traditional" multiclassing and VMC where allowed on the same character?
"It is probably a good idea to use either this variant system or multicasting, but the two systems can be used together. "
-Taken from the SRD.
So using VMC and conventional multicasting simultaneously isn't strictly forbidden and the language here isn't even that dismissive of the idea. It is definitely an "ask your DM" thing.
As a DM I would allow both. You're not breaking any rules and between first class and archetype, second class and archetype, variant multiclass and feat selection you can do wonderfully unique things. I would be thrilled if anybody in my group had the imagination and mastery of rules necessary to do this.
Have you seen or used any combination that went to good or too bad? Which one?
In general, I haven't created a character where my use of VMC has been a bad decision. I believe that VMC is never going to make you LESS powerful, as a whole, than not using VMC. There are obviously better VMC options when choosing to VMC, but I really don't see a down side to it unless you have a feat intensive character design that requires those feats immediately (like archer builds).
Some interesting builds I've made:
Half-elf Bard (archeologist) 8 / Investigator (Slueth) 4 / VMC Magus
Halfling Barbarian (Titan Mauler) 3 / Fighter (Viking) 9 / VMC Bard
Gnome Witch (Havocker) 11 / Wizard (Spellslinger) 1 / VMC Rogue
Half-Orc Druid (Nature Fang) 8 / Unchained Rogue (Scout) 4 / VMC Cleric
I've seen (as in one of my players) bring out. Kineticist / VMC Wizard with an insane bonus to initiative, and a Sage familiar. He is very versatile, very powerful, and can contribute just about anywhere.
- What do you feel about being able to multiclass on prestige classes when using VMC? What if both, "traditional" multiclassing and VMC where allowed on the same character?
I support using both. I LIKE seeing jack-of-all-trades characters. I prefer to play those kinds of characters. I like knowing that those kinds of characters can handle most situations (albet some more difficult than others) that I throw at them. It also tends to form tighter group cohesion because the characters need to share the burden of completing tasks.
I advise letting them use traditional and variant multi classing.