Hello all,
First time pathfinder players, though I have a bit of rpg experience under my belt (namely Deathwatch, but some Iron Kingdoms).
My group is starting a new campaign in carrion crown, and I dont actually have to GM this time around. Unfortunately its been awhile since I've built a character so I'm at a bit of a loss.
We have in the party-
1 Cleric supporter
1 Wizard who wants to play with peoples heads
1 Paladin with a big 2-h sword, built to be the party tank.
Looking at the party, it seemed like a consistent damage character, and a party face are pretty necessary.
Given the highly melee based nature of the damage, and the fact that the wizard doesnt want to really dps, the gm suggested I play some form of archer.
I have gravitated towards the Inquisitor, mostly for RP reasons, after reading the guides online it seems like inquis archers are a good class, and I'm using the conversion inquisition to help being a party face. What I don't see is how the inquis is supposed to perform well in combat. That being said I'm not totally married to the class, I want the party to be well rounded. I am also really keen on the warrior priest (though not really as an archer), but am open to suggestion.
My current build is
Human Inquis. Level 2
Str-15
Dex-18 (2 from human)
Con-11
Int-9
Wis-16
Cha-6
Feats-
Point Blank
Precise Shot
The paladin is hitting with a 2d6 greatsword with 1.5 his strength. My bow on the other hand is 1d8 without a modifier till I can get a composite bow, and even then its using my str not my maxed out dex. In our play session I didnt seem to add much.
I'm not trying to be whiny, I'm more seeking to understand how Inquisitors can keep up with the other classes, since my GM is worried we wont have enough combat prowess with only 4 players. So if anyone could recommend general strategies/builds on playing an archer, or explain how im seeing it wrong (which I'm pretty sure I am), that would be greatly appreciated. I just leveled up to lvl. 3 so I need to pick another feat, I was considering deadly aim.
I am also considering adopting the Sacred Huntmaster or Sanctified Slayer archetypes (GM has no problem re-writing certain parts of the character since we have only played once). If you have experience with those or any advice that would also be great!
So in summary.
1. Can the inquisitor keep up in combat?
2. How does one play/build an archer? Can archers compete with 2-h melee fighters
3. Are the sacred huntsman/sanctified slayer archetypes a good choice?
Thanks for your time!
Inquisitors add to combat with their judgements. Just add to your damage with that, or your attack if needed. Also you will be able to bane your weapon on call to deal another 2d6 damage per hit. You will want to pick up deadly aim as well to increase damage that much more.
Inquisitor is a good archer, but I would play a full base attack bonus class.
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Inquisitors are relatively weak at low levels. Bane at 5th lvl really brings up your damage. It's really when you get second judgement at 8th that you start to shine.
I would suggest increasing your Con; 11 is too low IMHO. Are the stats rolled, or are you using point buy?
You might want to consider the Preacher archetype. I find rerolls are better than teamwork feats for an archer.
We rolled our stats, so I could switch them around still, but we didnt get the full point buy. I was pretty happy with 2 16 scores.
Maybe switch Str and Con? And/or put your 4th level ability score increase into Con.
Most inquisitor spells are buffs or utility, so you don't need to max out Wisdom to max out save DCs.
Divine favor is great, especially if have the Fate's Favored trait.
Inquisitors are exemplars of the Pathfinder paradigm of adding up lots of small bonuses to get big effects. They excel with lots of little buffs, like spells, Judgments, bane, and Teamwork feats. They require a lot of system mastery, and you have to time your buff casting and swift action buffs correctly to optimize yourself in combat, but once they come on line, they can be really powerful archers. Fortunately, you'll have really good initiative (Dex + Wis + Reactionary?), so you can buff during the first round of combat (standard action spell + swift action Judgment), which is equivalent to acting all buffed up last in the combat round.
An inquisitor seems like a great addition to your party. They're skill monkeys, have 6 levels of casting, can be a back up healer if both the cleric and paladin fall, are good at both melee and ranged combat, and have some built-in roleplaying hooks. Their bonus Teamwork feats encourage cooperative play and tactics.
EDIT:
If you want to play a different kind of warrior-priest, the warpriest is pretty solid. Not as many skills as the inquisitor, but lots of swift action self-buffing spells. I've heard the Arsenal Chaplain archetype makes a really solid archer, but someone with a better handle of the warpriest class would be able to explain it better than me.
Does anyone have any suggestions for traits- (I just looked up fates favored and realized none of us selected them). Fate's Favored seems like a given since I'll be buffing myself alot.
Similarly- Any suggestions for a teamwork feat? I was thinking friendly fire coordination, so that I wouldnt have to worry about my allies standing in the way. (my understanding is that even though I ignore the +4AC for something being in combat, if my ally is in front of me they give them a +4 to ac for being in the way).
If you wanted to play a different kind of "Magical Archer", you could consider the Occultist.
Something like:
Half-Elf Haunt Collector (you want the elf FCB, it is amazing.)
Str-15 Dex 16 Con 11 Int 16+2 Wis 9 Cha 6
Traits: Student of Philosophy, Pragmatic Activator (or Deadeye Bowman if you decide you don't care about either UMD or talking to people)
Get Hornbow Proficiency from being a Half-Elf
Take Transmutation as your first implement, take the "Trappings of the Warrior" panoply at 6th, so pick Abjuration either 2nd or 3rd, and make your other implement one of the ones without a good resonant bonus (like Conjuration or Necromancy) so you can haunt it with the Champion medium spirit instead for bonus damage.
Then you just fill up your feats (you don't get bonus ones) with PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot (when you can get it) and Extra Mental Focus.
As far as traits go, fate's favorite is a pretty strong one. For your other, the most popular trait in the game is reactionary. He who goes first, wins.
I'd advise learning rapid shot at level three, rather than deadly aim. Rapid shot increases your odds of hitting rather dramatically, does better damage, and doubles your chance to crit. That, and extra attacks are good for a class like the inquisitor that gets bonus damage every hit.
I wouldn't worry about the paladin showing you up. In pathfinder, archery is just about the easiest and best way to deal damage in the game. The reason being, you get a full attack every round; you don't have to move after dropping an enemy. You'll see your relative power to the paladin increase with every additional attack you get.
I'd look into buying bracers of archery when you can afford them. And, if your wizard isn't the kind to cast haste, boots of speed.
Good luck with your character, and welcome to pathfinder.
This has all been great advice, but out paladin left the group and a ranger joined the group (the paladin was a first timer who didnt find it fun).
So this gives us a
Cleric
Wizard
Ranger
And me.
So it seems like we really need a tank. I could re-purpose my current inquis, or switch to warpriest/paladin. Any advice for building a tankier character?
Paladins are fun. On several threads, I've seen advice that suggests you do the VMC Cavalier Order of the Star, which adds 50% to your Lay on Hands, so at 7th level, you would be considered a 10th level paladin for lay on hands.
Paladins can use their swift action to Lay on Hands, have heavy armor and shield proficiency, and d10 HD, which makes them the tankiest of tanks.
One build would be:
1. Fey Foundling
1. Human Bonus: Power Attack
3. VMC Cavalier Order of the Star
5. Quick Channel?
7. VMC
9. Improved Critical
11. VMC
13. Divine Interference
15. VMC
17. Quicken Spell
19. VMC
Take Magical Lineage Divine Favor and Fates Favored to give you a +6 Luck bonus to attacks and damage at 17th level.
If 3rd party products are allowed, Mystical Healing provides a nice scaling bonus to healing that synergizes well with Fey Foundling. I would squeeze it into 5th level.
Paladins are fun. On several threads, I've seen advice that suggests you do the VMC Cavalier Order of the Star.
Yeah, that's a hella fun build. What he's referring to by "VMC" is "variant multi class", which lets you swap out half your feats for some class features from a different class. If you variant multi class cavalier, you choose a cavalier order. Order of the star says you can count half your cavalier levels as paladin levels for the purpose of lay on hands, which gives you the healing of a paladin one and a half times your level. You can find the rules for variant multi classing in Pathfinder Unchained, or online.
Of course, this is an optional rule system, so ask your GM first.
Before I give any advise for rounding out the party, is the ranger melee or ranged?
Ranger wants to wield a bow, this isnt a huge loss for me, I wasnt to thrilled to play a bow wielder, I like my characters to get into the thick of it.
Is the warrior priest a viable tank with his ability to self buff? Or is the healing of the paladin to much to give up. I'm slightly pulled towards the warrior priest, but I dont want the party to suffer for my choice.
I didn't realize the warpriest's Fervor ability could self-heal as a swift action like a paladin! That's super awesome.
Anyone else think the Fey Foundling paladin trick would be worth trying with a warpriest?
Warpriests look like paladins that trade out full BAB for 6th level spells.
If you wanted to play a different kind of "Magical Archer", you could consider the Occultist.
Something like:
Half-Elf Haunt Collector (you want the elf FCB, it is amazing.)
Str-15 Dex 16 Con 11 Int 16+2 Wis 9 Cha 6
Traits: Student of Philosophy, Pragmatic Activator (or Deadeye Bowman if you decide you don't care about either UMD or talking to people)
{. . .}
When considering traits, remember that normally in a Paizo Adventure Path you will be spending one of them on a Campaign Trait, so if you want both of the above you need to either pay for one with a Drawback or with the feat Additional Traits (which actually gives you two additional traits, so you could get your campaign trait and all three of the above). This is true even though a change beyond your control has obsoleted your plan to become an archer.
Speaking of amazing Favored Class Bonuses, if you are going to become a Paladin after all, and if you are going to be a Half-Elf, the Half-Elf Favored Class Bonus is great (especially once you stack it with the spell Widen Auras) as long as you didn't take an archetype that trades out some of the Paladin's auras, and the Elf Favored Class Bonus is not too shabby even if you did.
Back to Additional Traits, the downside of this option is that it costs another feat, but if you are going to go Warpriest (another option noted above), you actually get a decent number of Bonus Combat Feats (not as many as a Fighter or a Phantom Thief Unchained Rogue or Vigilante using nearly all their Talents for Combat Feats, but more than anything else), and you get to use your Warpriest level as both effective Fighter level and effective Base Attack Bonus in qualifying for them. If you take the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest archetype, you trade out the increase in Sacred Weapon damage in exchange for Weapon Training, so you want a high damage weapon. If you didn't take this archetype, Sacred Weapon damage scales with level and eventually becomes amazing, especially in combination with the Vital Strike feat chain (which as mentioned above Warpriest eventually lets you qualify for all three of), so you have a greater variety of effective weapons, especially later on. Combining this with their Sacred Weapon scaling damage (assuming that their Sacred Weapon doesn't have greater base damage already), for a Medium Warpriest, you get (without and then with Enlarge Person or a similar effect -- find a way get Enlarge Person or Lead Blades on yourself, or at least get an Impact weapon, or to make it even more insane than shown below get both, or if you are going for an archer warpriest or even a switch-hitter, find a way to get Gravity Bow on yourself). Here is a table of how insane it gets; I previuosly posted this here, but I am adding estimated effective Double-Enlarged Damage (not 100% sure I did the conversion correctly -- double-check before using) for having two of the above options going at the same time (note -- it still looks a bit weird because except for 1st level, I first show the damage without the Vital Strike chain and then with it):
Level Base Damage Enlarged Damage Double-Enlarged Damage
1 1d6 1d8 2d6
6 1d8 2d6 2d8
6+VS 2d8 4d6 4d8
12 1d10 2d8 4d6
12+IVS 3d10 6d8 12d6
15 2d6 3d6 3d8
15+GVS 8d6 12d6 12d8
20 2d8 3d8 6d6
20+GVS 8d8 12d8 24d6
That kind of single-shot damage is going to cut through almost all Damage Reduction like a hot knife through butter even if you can't find the right kind of weapon to pierce it.
Bloodrager and paladin are my favorite “tanky” frontliners. My current character is a cool frontline hunter with an animal companion. This gives you two characters to soak up some damage.
So we just played and the party seemed to compete fine. The GM asked me to just switch my old stats instead of re-rolling (since I rolled above average he said he didnt want to punish me for switching to tank for the party).
This left me with the following warpriest-
Luthor Helborg-
Str- 18 (+2 for human)
Dex-11
Con- 15
Int- 10
Wisdom- 16
Cha- 6
Traits- Chance Savior (+2 initiative) and Fates Favor
Blessings- War and the conversion inquisition (i know RAW it probably isnt legal, but the party needed a face so the GM was cool with it, and they work like sudo domains anyway)
Feats-
Toughness (Human)
Greatsword Weapon Focus (War Priest)
Improved Initiative
Anyone have any suggestions for 2 level 3 feats? I'm building a 2 handed weapon fighter that should be at least moderately tanky.
Also what should my level 4 bonus stat be once I get there. Raising my con to 16 seems good, to help me keep my hp pool up.
I also just want to give tons of thanks to the community so far, the help given has been tremendous, and our last play session went really well. Except for the part where we happened upon a Dire Ram the crit me for 30 damage leaving me at -9 HP. Things got dicey, but I hit the bastard back with a crit putting it into the dirt (after our cleric brought me back to the land of the living).
Warpriest with a dip in Shaman for life spirit can do the oradin trick rather nicely.
3. Power Attack
3. Furious Focus (bonus combat feat)
4. You already have Tougness, so Dex +1 for 12 Dex for +1 AC, Reflex Saves, Initiative, the occasional ranged attack, Stealth, Ride, Acrobatics check.
8. Con +1 (+8 hit points, +1 Fort)
Is your favored class bonus going into skills, hit points, or something else? The human favored class bonus is 1/6 of a combat feat, right?
My favored class bonus is the 1/6th bonus feats. Does buffing constitution work retroactively?
Yes.
For the record, I just realized that I made a mistake in the table of Warpriest damage progression above. The rows for "15" and "15 + GVS" should start "18" and "18 + GVS", respectively, because Greater Vital Strike needs BAB +16 (which Warpriest 16 counts for even though it is a 3/4 BAB class), not +15, and the next Warpriest Bonus Combat Feat is at 18 (don't take an archetype that trades this out).
^Technically, they aren't supposed to do that, and Warpriest doesn't get the free retraining that the Fighter does, so you would have to use the retraining rules that apply to everybody else.