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Ok, so this came up. Given the following scenario:
Wizard A is your average level 5 schmuck the can cast Burning Hands.
Wizard B is also level 5 and took Spell Specialization Burning Hands.
Wizard A casts Burning Hands for 5d4 in a 15ft cone.
Can anyone point me to an FAQ that explicitly states that Wizard B does not cast his Burning Hands at 7d4 in a 15ft cone?
I am willing to give the player the ability to keep the damage slightly above the by RAW cap due to the feat investment, just wanted to know if there is an actual ruling on the matter.
Kindly keep "your two cents" to yourselves as I am mainly interested in official rules.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I’m not sure you’ll find a FAQ that explicitly states what you’re looking for. It seems like you might be misinterpreting the spell description.
When it says “(maximum 5d4)”, that doesn’t mean the caster level is limited to 5th, rather that the damage ceases to scale higher than 5d4, regardless of how high your caster level gets.
When Wizard B casts burning hands, he does so at CL 7, but still only doing 5d4, just like a 7th level wizard would. A 20th level wizard casts burning hands at caster level 20, by still only ever does 5d4 damage.
There’s a feat that explicitly increases the damage cap of spells, Intensified Spell. Note how it treats damage caps and caster level as distinct concepts.
I’m not sure you’ll find a FAQ that explicitly states what you’re looking for. It seems like you might be misinterpreting the spell description.
When it says “(maximum 5d4)”, that doesn’t mean the caster level is limited to 5th, rather that the damage ceases to scale higher than 5d4, regardless of how high your caster level gets.
When Wizard B casts burning hands, he does so at CL 7, but still only doing 5d4, just like a 7th level wizard would. A 20th level wizard casts burning hands at caster level 20, by still only ever does 5d4 damage.
There’s a feat that explicitly increases the damage cap of spells, Intensified Spell. Note how it treats damage caps and caster level as distinct concepts.
Hm, no. I understand that. It just seems unfair that the investment "goes to waste" after a certain level as Spell Specialization is but one option a caster get when it comes to the increase to caster level.
Signature Spell comes to mind and I am sure many others are out there. Does the trait really becomes obsolete apart from a +1 to caster level checks to overcome spell resistance? It really shouldn't.
Hm, no. I understand that. It just seems unfair that the investment "goes to waste" after a certain level as Spell Specialization is but one option a caster get when it comes to the increase to caster level.
Signature Spell comes to mind and I am sure many others are out there. Does the trait really becomes obsolete apart from a +1 to caster level checks to overcome spell resistance? It really shouldn't.
Spell Specialization can be moved to a different spell every level, so it never goes to waste even if you take it early, as you can always move it to the next big blast spell. Additionally, Signature Spell can be applied to spells other than those with damage caps and you can pick ahead of time what spell you want to apply it too. A +1 can mean quite a bit depending on the spell it is applied to, outside of just damage (Army out of Time comes to mind, which makes unbelievably powerful use out of caster level) and some damage spells have infinite scaling (such as boneshaker). Others are very powerful the quicker they obtain their caster level maximums, like Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray and Magic Missile. Classes that make the most of this usually try and rush caster levels to get the maximum benefit quicker than normal.
Additionally, consider that Burning Hands is a 1st level spell, and the fact that it’s maximums exist to ensure that it isn’t the best blast spell in the game. If the spell had the ease of breaking it’s scaling, you’d see it paired with all the metamagics you would want to throw onto it as your spellcaster gained levels with damage numbers rivalling higher powered blast spells at considerably lower cost. Empowered, Intensified, Maximizied, Quickened, Dazing. These can be easily added to Burning Hands thanks to its low spell level, and while it is lower and therefore more easily saved against, Reflex is one of the lowest saves on average, so even Burning Hands can reliably land the stun going into the higher levels. You should always be moving onto the next big spell, it’s just how the game is balanced.
If this is a sorcerer, you’ll also see even bigger numbers if they had Blood Havoc or one of the bloodlines that adds damage per damage dice. They often makes really strong use out of metamagic feats thanks to adding them spontaneously.
Also, as for official responses, I’m not really sure what you expect since the spell literally tells you what the maximum scaling is from caster level. It is written pretty clearly. So official responses are going to be next to zero because it’s entirely unnecessary short of someone trying to intentionally misread it.
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The official rules are very clear. Many spells have a cap on their effects. Unless something specifically says it changes the cap, the cap remains. You are very unlikely to get any sort of official response or FAQ, and if you do it would likely be "No reply needed".
And as many times as I've seen people repeating incorrect information despite being shown multiple times that they are wrong, redundancy in a thread is not a problem. What you wish would happen doesn't matter. I wish people would actually make their own decisions/rulings instead of running to the message boards for every little problem. But that isn't likely to stop any time soon.
Hm, no. I understand that. It just seems unfair that the investment "goes to waste" after a certain level as Spell Specialization is but one option a caster get when it comes to the increase to caster level.
Signature Spell comes to mind and I am sure many others are out there. Does the trait really becomes obsolete apart from a +1 to caster level checks to overcome spell resistance? It really shouldn't.
Spell Specialization can be moved to a different spell every level, so it never goes to waste even if you take it early, as you can always move it to the next big blast spell. Additionally, Signature Spell can be applied to spells other than those with damage caps and you can pick ahead of time what spell you want to apply it too. A +1 can mean quite a bit depending on the spell it is applied to, outside of just damage (Army out of Time comes to mind, which makes unbelievably powerful use out of caster level) and some damage spells have infinite scaling (such as boneshaker). Others are very powerful the quicker they obtain their caster level maximums, like Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray and Magic Missile. Classes that make the most of this usually try and rush caster levels to get the maximum benefit quicker than normal.
Additionally, consider that Burning Hands is a 1st level spell, and the fact that it’s maximums exist to ensure that it isn’t the best blast spell in the game. If the spell had the ease of breaking it’s scaling, you’d see it paired with all the metamagics you would want to throw onto it as your spellcaster gained levels with damage numbers rivalling higher powered blast spells at considerably lower cost. Empowered, Intensified, Maximizied, Quickened, Dazing. These can be easily added to Burning Hands thanks to its low spell level, and while it is lower and therefore more easily saved against, Reflex is one of the lowest saves on average, so even Burning Hands can reliably land the stun going into the higher levels. You should always be moving onto the next big...
Thank you for your post Waifu, this is much more in line with what I was hoping to get by posting here.
With regards to Army Across Time I can see it's uses but I'm not sure I'd call it unbelievably powerful considering the limitations of no movement and only take aid another actions, unless there is some teamwork feats that would blow it out of the water as I must admit the party has only taken Paired Opportunists to help the rogue land more blows.All in all I'm still going to allow traits/feats to break the cap in my games.
The official rules are very clear. Many spells have a cap on their effects. Unless something specifically says it changes the cap, the cap remains. You are very unlikely to get any sort of official response or FAQ, and if you do it would likely be "No reply needed".
And as many times as I've seen people repeating incorrect information despite being shown multiple times that they are wrong, redundancy in a thread is not a problem. What you wish would happen doesn't matter. I wish people would actually make their own decisions/rulings instead of running to the message boards for every little problem. But that isn't likely to stop any time soon.
And I have, Jeraa. If you kindly refer to my first post I did not ask for a new but rather if someone knew of one they could refer me to.
With regards to Army Across Time I can see it's uses but I'm not sure I'd call it unbelievably powerful considering the limitations of no movement and only take aid another actions, unless there is some teamwork feats that would blow it out of the water as I must admit the party
If you’re wearing a Ring of Tactical Precision and have Allied Spellcaster, Army Across Time gives you a +5 bonus to overcome SR and a +2 to other CL variables. Plus the ability to stack a bunch of +3 aid another bonuses if you’d prefer.
I thought CL didnt get capped out just the damage die.10 level wizard will still have +10 from his CL for beating SR right?
Correct. The higher caster level would also apply to things like spell range, concentration checks, and make the spell harder to dispel. So there are potentially multiple benefits to having a higher caster level even if the actual effects of the spell have hit the cap.