"Weaksauce Dragons" Revisted

[Saldiven]

There was a recent reply to an old thread discussing "Weaksauce Dragons." The original thread from several years ago was from a GM who had trouble with his dragons providing any challenge to his players. The recent reply (from five years after the original post) was from another GM who (along with his other GM friends) had encountered the same issue.

Here is the reply that brought that thread back to Page 1.

"Lunched today with some GMs and this kinda came up. After negative action economy, DPR, size modifiers and such were well BSed, the unanimous consensus was that a few key Class levels were the best, followed by truly wicked templates."

I decided to start this thread for more experienced GMs to give advice for other GMs who have run into this situation. Dragons are very iconic creatures in the fantasy RPG genre, so anything to make them more interesting and exciting would be appreciated.

I'll add my suggestions shortly, but started this to get the ball rolling.

[Dragonborn3]

A friend of mine has point out that a Silver Dragon(one of the really old ones) with a level of monk gets scary. With Scaled Disciple monk this more readily apples to all true dragons.

Wild Rager barbarian gives another attack. Paladin/Antipaladin skyrockets saving throws and to-hit.

[Mykull]

Dragon #284, 25th Anniversary Special, p. 36 wrote:

CLASS LEVELS

Barbarian: A raging dragon is not a pretty sight. While the dragon might sacrifice so me of its more sophisticated tactics, it smashes things even faster when enraged. Any class that offers uncanny dodge helps.
Bard: A good dragon with bard levels would make an interesting NPC, but the last thing serious-minded heroes want in an epic fight is for the dragon to start singing.
Cleric: Perhaps the best class for dragons, cleric levels offer a dragon the one thing its innate abilities can't give it: healing.
Druid: Druid levels are a good way for green or black dragons to exert more control over their habitats, but they don't fit many other species.
Fighter: A dragon with more feats and a better attack bonus is just mean. A proper selection of feats could make a dragon with a few fighter levels nearly unstoppable.
Monk: The unarmed damage and unarmed attack bonus of a monk don't stack with a monster's natural attacks, so monk levels aren't really a good choice -- the fact that dragons can already fly reduces the utility of many of the monk's special abilities.
Paladin: A good dragon wth paladin levels and the celestial template could crush entire armies of evil, or work as a powerful behind-the-scenes force for good.
Ranger: Like monk, the ranger's special abilities mesh poorly with a dragon's innate powers.
Rogue: Sneak attack. Move Silently. Hide. A dragon with levels in rogue will almost always kill the first PC it attacks -- be very careful with this one.
Sorcerer: Dragons are already powerful spellcasters, but it isn't hard to imagine them taking sorcerer levels to increase their spellcasting ability.
Wizard: Dragons have a hard time manipulating most spellbooks, but one might take levels of the wizard class to learn from spellbooks it has collected or to get item creation feats.

Obviously, this article is for 3.0 or 3.5, so some features might be adjusted slightly for Pathfinder, but I think the basic advice holds true. As does the following:

Dragon #284, 25th Anniversary Special, p. 41 wrote:

A WELL-PLAYED DRAGON

Always . . . looks out for number on. Never . . . loses a game of chess.
Always . . . uses the home field advantage Never . . . knowingly shows weakness.
Always . . . acts like royalty. Never . . . wastes its breath weapon.
Always . . . has an ace up its sleeve. Never . . . makes stupid decisions.
Always . . . speaks many languages. Never . . . trusts anyone.
Always . . . uses its wings. Never . . . forgets a slight.
Always . . . looks for the hidden meaning. Never . . . acts predictably.
Always . . . overestimates itself. Never . . . fears a human threat.
Always . . . has an escape route. Never . . . takes meaningless risks.
Always . . . is awesome to behold. Never . . . acts on a whim.

[the David]

It also works really well with other monsters. Give a nymph the vampire template and she now has an even higher charisma bonus to add to her armor class, saves and hit points.
I'm not sure what the FAQ says about stacking levels of paladin and (lore) oracle on top of that.

[Saldiven]

My first contribution to the discussion:

Re-assess the feats and spell choices for the dragon in question.

This is particularly important for dragons from the first couple of Bestiary installments. The game has developed significantly over the last decade, and many of the dragons from Bestiary and Bestiary 2 have feat and spell choices that, by current standards, are incredibly sub-optimal. (Honestly, many of them were sub-optimal back then, too.)

There's no reason that every single Adult Red Dragon is a cookie-cutter replica of every other one. The stat-block exists for simplicity and ease of use for the GM.

For example, most dragons in the Bestiary don't have Flyby Attack on their stat block until Ancient in age, and some of them don't get it at all. To me, that's just too important a skill for a strong melee flying creature to not have it. A dragon should have it as early as they can, because with the ubiquity of adventurers in the world, a dragon that has to land and fight hand to hand is a dead dragon.

{Edit: As seen by the prior posts, many people's first instinct is to add character levels. To me, there are simple adjustments you can make to the stat block that are easier to do than calculating character levels that will have a significant impact on the way a dragon plays. I planned on addressing those, first.}

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

Just using the base dragon, no class levels: If the dragon is old enough, you could give it the dimensional dervish line of feats. I did this with an ancient blue once. It would retreat behind it's wall of force after every full attack. After the party finally nailed it with dimensional anchor it cast antimagic field and grappled their wizard.

Another trick (that I did with the same dragon) is abusing the chill touch spell. Cast quickened chill touch whenever you run out of charges, and expend them with full attacks.

Greater invisibility and nondetection are always amusing, in this particular case nothing came out of it because the wizard had true sight and quickened glitterdust prepared. (Sometimes my PCs get paranoid. I don't know why.)

In all, it was a fairly amusing battle.

But, it would have been a much shorter battle if the dragon was alone. As it was, it had equally frightening friends. If one was very set on having a solo encounter (perhaps because you wanted the dragon to eat your entire cr budget?) you could have it learn summon monster, and cast it a few times before combat. Most dragons don't have as high level spells as a wizard of the same cr, though, and I don't know how effective their summons would be at slowing the party down. (Or even being enough of a threat to get attacked.)

[Chess Pwn]

Dragons are smart and fine as are. This issue is how you play them. Like if the party is 3 TWF paladins and a buffer with haste then plopping into the middle of them to melee it up will be a dead dragon.
If they have machine guns then staying at range is bad.
Like it's knowing their varied battle plans and using the one that's hardest for the party.

[Saldiven]

Along the lines of AA's post, take a look at the Bestiary's Ancient Red Dragon entry. Peruse it's line of feats. Usually, the Vital Strike set of feats are considered sub-optimal. The ARD has a stout 4d6 damage bite, so the full chain results in a 18d6 + 21 damage bite. However, it has to stop by a target to use the attack, and foregoes the rest of it's attacks.

Now, imagine if we ditched Improved Iron Will (it has a +21 Will Save anyway), Cleave, and Staggering Critical. We replace these with Flyby Attack, Snatch, and Snatch and Drop.

{Edit: Will continue tweaking later; am at work.}

[Matrix Dragon]

Using mythic dragons could help things a bit. The mythic dragons have some pretty nasty abilities on top of everything else.

[tonyz]

Proper tactics, feat, and spell selection go a LONG way towards making dragons nastier. Shield and mage armor are an easy +8 AC; (greater) invisibility is great for a hunting/ambush predator as are many concealing/defending illusions. And that's even before we get into high-level tactics - what if there's a forbiddance spell on the lair, or a limited wish putting up a (un)hallow spell, or a permanent illusion of a cave wall behind which the dragon sleeps, or a bed of rich gems right over a nasty acid pit? Trap spells galore should be floating around the place, very probably including some spells the dragon invented and that players won't have ever seen before. Etherealness or dimension door to outmaneuver players. Emergency force sphere is really nice to stop single-big-attack foes (charging knights, people who cast really nasty spells).

Dragons should take full advantage of their surroundings. Pop up from underwater and submerge after a Spring Attack. Fly (or climb cliffs) in misty/cloudy regions where draconic senses locate enemies well enough for breath weapons but enemies can't see back to target ranged attacks. Dragons operating in windy weather where enemy archers have problems but they're still capable of flying. A white dragon icewalking on the roof of a cavern inside a glacier; a red dragon with a lair inside a volcano where enemies will have to spend a lot of magic just to keep themselves alive; black dragons in a swamp where the very water is acidic enough to harm most living things (but not gold or the dragon).

Dragons should know the area around their lair very well and have planned ambush sites.

Dragons are smart, clever, and (very often) have access to powerful mind-affecting magic. This means they very probably have minions (dragon-worshipping kobolds, deluded princesses, enslaved fighter-type NPCs, extraplanar chess partners, bard-acolytes or sorceror-acolytes who wish to learn the dragon's secrets, druidic members of the Society For The Preservation Of Endangered Dragons, half-dragon offspring -- lots of possibilities). It's likely the dragon has information-gathering minions as well as lair defenders.

Younger dragons with limited or no spellcasting abilities still have their voice and skills to acquire minions with, too. (I like to team them up with other members of their clutch.)

[Philo Pharynx]

Don't forget their racial abilities -

White
Icewalking - A floor of slippery ice makes it much harder on the party
Fog cloud/freezing fog/blizzard - Dragons have blindsense, most adventurers don't

Green
Woodland stride/entangle/plant growth - Forests and jungles reduce line of sight and are often difficult terrain.
Water breathing - Playing in the water puts PC's at a disadvantage

Black
Water breathing - Playing in the water puts PC's at a disadvantage
Swamp stride - PC's are stuck in boats or wading.

Blue
Mirage - be in two places at once and use breath weapon through it
Hallucinatory terrain - confuse allies

Red
Smoke vision - smoke pots around that can be triggered by breath
Pyrotechnics - smoke or blinding
Wall of Fire - cut people off from healing, surround spellcasters
Manipulate flames - moving walls of fire
Melt Stone - make lava

[Saldiven]

Saldiven wrote:

Along the lines of AA's post, take a look at the Bestiary's Ancient Red Dragon entry. Peruse it's line of feats. Usually, the Vital Strike set of feats are considered sub-optimal. The ARD has a stout 4d6 damage bite, so the full chain results in a 18d6 + 21 damage bite. However, it has to stop by a target to use the attack, and foregoes the rest of it's attacks.

Now, imagine if we ditched Improved Iron Will (it has a +21 Will Save anyway), Cleave, and Staggering Critical. We replace these with Flyby Attack, Snatch, and Snatch and Drop.

{Edit: Will continue tweaking later; am at work.}

Bleh, wouldn't let me edit. (Also, I'd ditch Critical Focus for Powerful Wings to have the prereq for Snatch and Drop.)

Anyway, with the edited set of Feats above, consider the following basic attack mode (not counting his spell casting ability).

Starts 80' away from target, roughly. Makes a flying move action using Flyby Attack and Vital Strike attack against the target (either the most damaging Archer type or Caster type). Using Greater Vital Strike, the attack does 16d6 + 21 damage. Snatch then allows a free Grapple attempt with a +43 CMB. Assuming that hits, the target is picked up, and the ARD flies another 85 feet, crashing into the ground with the character (as per Snatch and Drop) doing 2d6 to both ARD and character. Dragon suffers through follow up for the next round, but should have buffed himself sufficiently to survive. On the following round, the ARD uses his 20d10 breath weapon on the grappled character; due to the Snatch feat, the character gets no Reflex save. Free action drop the character, and fly away, using a Quickened follow up spell if necessary for offense or defense.

And we're not even touching the fact that the ARD has 7th lvl casting ability.

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

Saldiven wrote:

Starts 80' away from target, roughly. Makes a flying move action using Flyby Attack and Vital Strike attack against the target (either the most damaging Archer type or Caster type). Using Greater Vital Strike, the attack does 16d6 + 21 damage. Snatch then allows a free Grapple attempt with a +43 CMB. Assuming that hits, the target is picked up, and the ARD flies another 85 feet, crashing into the ground with the character (as per Snatch and Drop) doing 2d6 to both ARD and character. Dragon suffers through follow up for the next round, but should have buffed himself sufficiently to survive. On the following round, the ARD uses his 20d10 breath weapon on the grappled character; due to the Snatch feat, the character gets no Reflex save. Free action drop the character, and fly away, using a Quickened follow up spell if necessary for offense or defense.

Alright, that is awesome. Even more fun with a cloud dragon due to it's thundering bite.

[Mark Thomas 66]

Mykull wrote:

Dragon #284, 25th Anniversary Special, p. 36 wrote:

CLASS LEVELS

Bard: A good dragon with bard levels would make an interesting NPC, but the last thing serious-minded heroes want in an epic fight is for the dragon to start singing.

Obviously, this article is for 3.0 or 3.5, so some features...

But maniacal ranting in twisted meter and rhyme would be creepy as all hell....and still bardic. Imagine Smaug, with Benedict Cumberbatch's voice, except speaking like Etrigan but in the same sinister sneering tone.

Bardic performance at your service.